Beethoven "Pathetique" Sonata, pain in left arm during first part.

[Daniel Shane]

Hi!

I'm trying to play the Beethoven "Pathetique" Sonata and I'm finding it
very difficult to go through the whole piece without pain in my left
arm. The pain happens after the slow introduction, when the left arm
must play octaves in rapid succession. I can play this kind of repeating
octaves for about 30 seconds and then the pain starts to set in.

Its fortunate because the octaves also stop after about 30 seconds in
the piece so it gives a much needed break for me before the piece starts
over at the repeating bar.

Has anyone has this problem in the past and managed to surpass it? I can
play the same thing in my right hand for much longer so I tend to
believe its simply because my left arm is not strong enough so the
muscles get tired very quickly.

If you have any comments or advise, feel free, since it seems I have
exhausted everything I could think of.

Daniel

[Georges Khairallah]

Daniel, I hear ya... when I played the "Sonate Pathetique" I used to have
the same pains in my arms as well. I never experienced any discomfort during
the intro though.

These octaves are a little hard to play if you are not completely relaxed.
the way I overcome that problem was to first make sure that I'm plenty
warmed up first.... (played some scales, arpeggios, and some octave
scales.... ) this ensures that my arm is relaxed, and my fingers know their
places.

then when actually playing the piece... I really had to learn that passage
really well, so that my fingers almost automatically knew where to go. I
noticed that the pain came from my over-concentration on where I need to
land next, and therefore made my whole arm tense fearing that I'll hit the
wrong notes.

After I learned that, I had much less discomfort playing these octaves...

Hope this helps ....
--
http://www.foreignkid.com
***@gmail.com
A+, RHCE

Post by Daniel Shane
Hi!
I'm trying to play the Beethoven "Pathetique" Sonata and I'm finding it
very difficult to go through the whole piece without pain in my left arm.
The pain happens after the slow introduction, when the left arm must play
octaves in rapid succession. I can play this kind of repeating octaves for
about 30 seconds and then the pain starts to set in.
Its fortunate because the octaves also stop after about 30 seconds in the
piece so it gives a much needed break for me before the piece starts over
at the repeating bar.
Has anyone has this problem in the past and managed to surpass it? I can
play the same thing in my right hand for much longer so I tend to believe
its simply because my left arm is not strong enough so the muscles get
tired very quickly.
If you have any comments or advise, feel free, since it seems I have
exhausted everything I could think of.
Daniel

[Alan Young]

Post by Daniel Shane
I'm trying to play the Beethoven "Pathetique" Sonata and I'm finding it
very difficult to go through the whole piece without pain in my left
arm.

Pain in various parts of your arms and hands is common; it's not
Beethoven's fault!

It's possible that you are using too much tension in your arm while
playing these octaves. Your arm should be totally relaxed; only the
wrist moves. Your teacher should be coaching you on this.
(Oh, no teacher? People who ask why they need a teacher, take note!)

Meanwhile... if you have health insurance, explain the problem to your
doctor, and you should get a referral to a physical therapist to help
you de-stress and gradually regain your strength. Of course, you'll
also have to rest and avoid aggravating the condition. After some
months of treatment, you should have a better capacity to deal with
this kind of playing.
If you don't have insurance, I've found that the most effective
treatment for most kinds of muscle pain in acupuncture, so I'd try that
first.

[David Bruce Murray]

Post by Daniel Shane
Hi!
I'm trying to play the Beethoven "Pathetique" Sonata and I'm finding it
very difficult to go through the whole piece without pain in my left arm.
The pain happens after the slow introduction, when the left arm must play
octaves in rapid succession. I can play this kind of repeating octaves for
about 30 seconds and then the pain starts to set in.

My strong suspicion is that you are tensing up your forearms and not moving
your wrist much. That is what is causing the pain. Try bouncing the hand
with the primary motion coming from your wrist. Yes, it's supposed to be
loud, but the wrist muscles should still take over when you come to a quick
passage that requires the use of the thumb and pinky like octaves.

You're likely wearing yourself out trying to control rapid octaves from the
elbow. As you develop your wrist muscles, you'll be able to play quick
octaves with more volume.

[presley]

Daniel, I'm a little concerned, although I might be reading your post a
different way than you intended. There aren't ANY repeated octaves in the
fast section of the Pathetique following the slow introduction. There are
octave tremolos (which go on for a very long time) going from low C with the
5th finger to the higher C with the thumb using 8th notes as the rythmic
value. Is that what you are talking about? I realize that in certain
editions there is a shorthand notation for those tremolos which might look
look like octaves. If you are doing repeated octaves, that would indeed lead
to quick fatigue. If, on the other hand, you are doing tremolos, you may
find that you need to find a pivot point in the center of your hand,, locate
that pivot point over a specific note (such as the index finger lying over
g, for instance) and rotate around that pivot point. Also, check to see that
your 5th finger and thumb are totally relaxed. If you are unconsciously
bending your thumb in for instance, that will activate an unneeded set of
muscles in your hand and arm. Also, it's better to think about throwing to
one side of the hand rather than to both sides. In this instance, since the
actual rhythmic beats happen on the low c's, you can think about throwing
your hand more strongly to the 5th finger and allow the thumb to take care
of itself.

Post by Daniel Shane
Hi!
I'm trying to play the Beethoven "Pathetique" Sonata and I'm finding it
very difficult to go through the whole piece without pain in my left arm.
The pain happens after the slow introduction, when the left arm must play
octaves in rapid succession. I can play this kind of repeating octaves for
about 30 seconds and then the pain starts to set in.
Its fortunate because the octaves also stop after about 30 seconds in the
piece so it gives a much needed break for me before the piece starts over
at the repeating bar.
Has anyone has this problem in the past and managed to surpass it? I can
play the same thing in my right hand for much longer so I tend to believe
its simply because my left arm is not strong enough so the muscles get
tired very quickly.
If you have any comments or advise, feel free, since it seems I have
exhausted everything I could think of.
Daniel

[Daniel Shane]

Hi all!

I would like to sincerly thank all of you who actually posted a message
in reponse to my pain, and I think I need to clear up something. Not
being used to type english that often I used the word octave when in
fact I should have said tremolo, I'm deelpy sorry for the mistake as I
see it has pointed some answers in the wrong direction.

I can do full octaves sequences exactly like someone said previously by
staying very relaxed, and not overconcentration on where to land, so the
person who suggested that is right on the spot. And if anyone is having
pain while doing full octaves like in one of the last chopin etudes,
trust me, its all in being relaxed.

So I nailed that problem a few years ago, but with the tremolos, I find
it extreemely difficult to stay relaxed, since the muscles are
constantly fighting to make the hand rock on each side in a very fast
fashion.

I will try what you suggest, to find a pivot point where I feel the
tension is the least and concentrate on that, see how long I can do it,
it seems that with the tremolo, the hand is doing so many times the same
movement that I cant see how you can do this over any extended period of
time without feeling any discomfort. Repeating the same movement with a
limb in a fast fashion seems to be the perfect way to generate pain I
think. When you play scales or anything else, its much easier since the
movement is not really perfectly the same so it seems that the muscles
each get a break now and then in the scale, but tremolos really go after
one sepecific set of muscles and push them hard all the time whatever
note you are on.

And yes you are right, my fingers on the left hand are slightly cuved to
be over the notes while doing the tremolo, I never really tried with a
flat hand to see the difference, I will try it asap when I get back home.

Its hard to say when you have pain while playing an instrument, if the
problem is technique or simply "medical" condition that makes you
different from the average persons. That why I was wondering if many
people find it exhansting to play tremolos "ad nauseum" in a piece.
The fact that I can do tremolos in the right hand for much longer than
the left hand makes me believe that muscle strengh could be an issue here.

Daniel

Post by presley
Daniel, I'm a little concerned, although I might be reading your post a
different way than you intended. There aren't ANY repeated octaves in the
fast section of the Pathetique following the slow introduction. There are
octave tremolos (which go on for a very long time) going from low C with the
5th finger to the higher C with the thumb using 8th notes as the rythmic
value. Is that what you are talking about? I realize that in certain
editions there is a shorthand notation for those tremolos which might look
look like octaves. If you are doing repeated octaves, that would indeed lead
to quick fatigue. If, on the other hand, you are doing tremolos, you may
find that you need to find a pivot point in the center of your hand,, locate
that pivot point over a specific note (such as the index finger lying over
g, for instance) and rotate around that pivot point. Also, check to see that
your 5th finger and thumb are totally relaxed. If you are unconsciously
bending your thumb in for instance, that will activate an unneeded set of
muscles in your hand and arm. Also, it's better to think about throwing to
one side of the hand rather than to both sides. In this instance, since the
actual rhythmic beats happen on the low c's, you can think about throwing
your hand more strongly to the 5th finger and allow the thumb to take care
of itself.

Post by Daniel Shane
Hi!
I'm trying to play the Beethoven "Pathetique" Sonata and I'm finding it
very difficult to go through the whole piece without pain in my left arm.
The pain happens after the slow introduction, when the left arm must play
octaves in rapid succession. I can play this kind of repeating octaves for
about 30 seconds and then the pain starts to set in.
Its fortunate because the octaves also stop after about 30 seconds in the
piece so it gives a much needed break for me before the piece starts over
at the repeating bar.
Has anyone has this problem in the past and managed to surpass it? I can
play the same thing in my right hand for much longer so I tend to believe
its simply because my left arm is not strong enough so the muscles get
tired very quickly.
If you have any comments or advise, feel free, since it seems I have
exhausted everything I could think of.
Daniel

[lariadc]

Post by Daniel Shane
with the tremolos, I find
it extreemely difficult to stay relaxed, since the muscles are
constantly fighting to make the hand rock on each side in a very fast
fashion.

You also don't want to be moving your elbow around a lot.

C.

[Cormagh]

Shane,

I practiced a lot of octave scales and broken octave scales to get
around this problem. Try spending at least as much time every day doing
the pure scales and broken octaves as you do on this piece. You will at
least spend less time frustrated and end up with a better technique.
Notice that the most difficult passage is right after the 2nd
ending/interlude. Spend more of your time on this page and less on the
main theme, give your hands a rest by concentrating on mastering the
other difficult passages in the piece as well. Relief from the pain
will come, but it will come from a few months of work. BTW, the burning
pain is not harmful, it is most likely lactic acid buildup. Which
should gradually be alleviated as your physical conditioning improves.

I would also consider working on another sonata, The pathetique 1st
movement is way overdone by aspiring amateurs, I would try the Op. 2
No. 1 in F minor, especially the fourth movement, as one at about the
same difficulty, which will develop your hand strength and ability to
play tremelos. There is no question that Beethoven was the first truly
athletic composer. Your proper training is the key to playing this kind
of piano music.

[Owen Lawrence]

Post by Cormagh
I practiced a lot of octave scales and broken octave scales to get
around this problem. Try spending at least as much time every day doing
the pure scales and broken octaves as you do on this piece. You will at
least spend less time frustrated and end up with a better technique.
Notice that the most difficult passage is right after the 2nd
ending/interlude. Spend more of your time on this page and less on the
main theme, give your hands a rest by concentrating on mastering the
other difficult passages in the piece as well. Relief from the pain
will come, but it will come from a few months of work. BTW, the burning
pain is not harmful, it is most likely lactic acid buildup. Which
should gradually be alleviated as your physical conditioning improves.

Pain is your body's way of telling you that damage is being done. If you
hurt, stop. If you keep inflicting it on yourself for a few months you
could end up with permanent damage. Your pain is most likely caused from
prolonged muscle tension. Work out which motions are causing this tension
and change them. It might be just a couple of notes that trigger a cascade
of tension, so learn those better until you can play them relaxed. Once a
note has been played there's no need to keep forcing the key downwards.

- Owen -

[Dr. Anthony J. Lomenzo]

Post by Owen Lawrence

Post by Cormagh
I practiced a lot of octave scales and broken octave scales to get
around this problem. Try spending at least as much time every day doing
the pure scales and broken octaves as you do on this piece. You will at
least spend less time frustrated and end up with a better technique.
Notice that the most difficult passage is right after the 2nd
ending/interlude. Spend more of your time on this page and less on the
main theme, give your hands a rest by concentrating on mastering the
other difficult passages in the piece as well. Relief from the pain
will come, but it will come from a few months of work. BTW, the burning
pain is not harmful, it is most likely lactic acid buildup. Which
should gradually be alleviated as your physical conditioning improves.

Pain is your body's way of telling you that damage is being done. If you
hurt, stop. If you keep inflicting it on yourself for a few months you
could end up with permanent damage. Your pain is most likely caused from
prolonged muscle tension. Work out which motions are causing this tension
and change them. It might be just a couple of notes that trigger a cascade
of tension, so learn those better until you can play them relaxed. Once a
note has been played there's no need to keep forcing the key downwards.
- Owen -

I agree with Owen. So too, think of the proverbial tooth ache which
after awhile 'may' tend to abate and some folks will see that as a
'cure' .... until it starts in again because the original 'cause' having
not been addressed generally remains only to resurface and with a good
chance of additional damage being done in the process! And I'll add with
no jest intended, generally such a dental situation occurring on a long
weekend when the local DDS/DMD is not to be found! :-(

More to, shall we say, '88 theme' ... think our mutual friend
'Schumann' and that alleged home-brew gizmo of his that was allegedly
going to 'strengthen' [!] that errant finger of his. Hmmmmm.

Doc Tony


Finally this -- another of the 'Ivories' loving fraternity complained of
chronic sore back "after only a half hour of playing" ... wasn't the
fingering in this case, it was the fixed height piano bench allegedly
not even being close to the standard 'real thing' piano height but
rather, piano height wise, one of those adjustable metal digital
keyboard frame holders [the X-legged thing] so that the hands were being
held much albeit unnoticeably 'higher' than normal and thus producing
undue strain on the back. Cure? An 'adjustable' bench to allow for the
metal frame digital piano holder disparity from the floor to the keys.
Worked for her! Although I find that the majority of cases involve that
pressure 'concentration' albeit 'after' the keys have already performed
their mission.