Roland digital piano key noise

Post by Steve
Hi all,
I have a Roland HP101 digital piano which I bought 5-6 months
ago. Nearly all of the black keys have developed an annoying
scraping/rattling sound when struck. This is especially
annoying since I often play with the volume quite low, and
the key noise is actually louder than the note itself. It sounds
as though something has come loose, or maybe a piece of felt
padding has come adrift. The key doesn't feel any
different to play.
I am planning on ringing the shop in the next few days but
just wondered if anyone has had similar experience with
this piano or other Rolands (it uses Roland's compact
progressive hammer action).
Was wondering if it's maybe a design flaw in this model,
in which case if I exchange it for a new one it will just
happen again. Or if I get it fixed will that be the end of
it, or will it happen again?
Has anyone else had a similar experience with a Roland
digital piano and how did you resolve it ??
thanks in advance
Steve

Hi Steve,
the old Roland FP-series (8?) used thist heavy Fatar keyboard block, which
became much louder and harder after 8-10 years.
My old Doepfer master keyboard (same Fatar block, bought it 1991) is
unplayable now (hurts after short practice and is very loud).
I'd opened the flight case about every year in order to clean and sometimes
even repair it.
What I saw was that the felt strips below each key-/counterweight-to-metal
contact had become thin and stiff, many counter weight stoppers (plastic)
were broken after 10 years of extensive usage.
I don't know what's in those newer Rolands today, guess yours could be a
production quality issue rather than one of "keyboard age".
Btw. I really hope my Yamaha P-120 will last more than 10 years of heavy
usage (practize and gigs).
Does anybody in this group know of Yamaha "GH" keyboards getting reasonably
louder after 5 years or so? Thanks in advance.

Cheers,
Y

Jonathan ;o}

2005-10-21 09:06:39 UTC

Post by Steve
Hi all,

There is a small age-related problem with the GH action that can arise. The
carbon-impregnated pads under each key can short out causing the relevant note
to play at full velocity, which can be a surprise, especially if trying to play
quietly in public!

It's a very simple matter of replacing the pads which are supplied as an octave
group, plus the end ones which are separate part numbers. This involves taking
the base plate off, lifting out the action (disconnecting a plug lead or two
IIRC) and peeling out the pads then replacing them with the new.

At the relatively low cost of a Yamaha digital though, you would probably be
best advised to change the board after 5 years of regular to heavy use. You'll
be doing yourself a favour and you'll enjoy the replacement, and if you keep the
old one you can fetch it out occasionally when you feel the need or for gigging
only.

Jonathan ;o}

Grant Family

2005-10-21 09:53:38 UTC

Is this possibly the same remedy for my Kawai PN70 that makes a clack on the
quick release of any key? Just would like to fix it up a bit before selling
as my ear no longer likes the "piano" quality.

Karen

Post by Jonathan ;o}

Post by Steve
Hi all,

Hi Steve,
the old Roland FP-series (8?) used thist heavy Fatar keyboard block, which
became much louder and harder after 8-10 years.
My old Doepfer master keyboard (same Fatar block, bought it 1991) is
unplayable now (hurts after short practice and is very loud).
I'd opened the flight case about every year in order to clean and sometimes
even repair it.
What I saw was that the felt strips below each
key-/counterweight-to-metal
contact had become thin and stiff, many counter weight stoppers (plastic)
were broken after 10 years of extensive usage.
I don't know what's in those newer Rolands today, guess yours could be a
production quality issue rather than one of "keyboard age".
Btw. I really hope my Yamaha P-120 will last more than 10 years of heavy
usage (practize and gigs).
Does anybody in this group know of Yamaha "GH" keyboards getting reasonably
louder after 5 years or so? Thanks in advance.
Cheers,
Y

There is a small age-related problem with the GH action that can arise. The
carbon-impregnated pads under each key can short out causing the relevant note
to play at full velocity, which can be a surprise, especially if trying to play
quietly in public!
It's a very simple matter of replacing the pads which are supplied as an octave
group, plus the end ones which are separate part numbers. This involves taking
the base plate off, lifting out the action (disconnecting a plug lead or two
IIRC) and peeling out the pads then replacing them with the new.
At the relatively low cost of a Yamaha digital though, you would probably be
best advised to change the board after 5 years of regular to heavy use. You'll
be doing yourself a favour and you'll enjoy the replacement, and if you keep the
old one you can fetch it out occasionally when you feel the need or for gigging
only.
Jonathan ;o}

Yossarian

2005-10-21 16:53:34 UTC

Post by Jonathan ;o}

Post by Yossarian
Btw. I really hope my Yamaha P-120 will last more than 10 years of heavy
usage (practize and gigs).
Does anybody in this group know of Yamaha "GH" keyboards getting
reasonably louder after 5 years or so? Thanks in advance.
Cheers,
Y

Hi Jonathan,
thanks so much for the advice!

Post by Jonathan ;o}
There is a small age-related problem with the GH action that can arise.
The carbon-impregnated pads under each key can short out causing the
relevant note to play at full velocity, which can be a surprise,
especially if trying to play quietly in public!

Gosh! I don't want that to happen, for sure not.
I might go and buy a whole set of those contact pads in advance, just in
case (some do this even with whole action blocks when buing an expensive
grand).
Are those pads like the "rubber" mats in PC keyboards? If they are, they
should never last much longer than 5 years. They tend to get ripped apart if
overused mechanically or stretched out beyond max.
Some "contact rubbers" even dont like higher air humidity, milk, beer or
coffee (no joke).

Post by Jonathan ;o}
It's a very simple matter of replacing the pads which are supplied as an
octave group, plus the end ones which are separate part numbers. This
involves taking the base plate off, lifting out the action (disconnecting
a plug lead or two IIRC) and peeling out the pads then replacing them with
the new.

Ok, I'm fairly used to take things apart and put them together again without
losing too many screws. ;-)
Very useful information.

Post by Jonathan ;o}
At the relatively low cost of a Yamaha digital though, you would probably
be best advised to change the board after 5 years of regular to heavy use.
You'll be doing yourself a favour and you'll enjoy the replacement, and if
you keep the old one you can fetch it out occasionally when you feel the
need or for gigging only.

Good point.
If I can afford it, I'm gonna look for a P-250 (or following model) for
stationary use anyway, so I could take the P-120 out for gigging.
Though I always try to get gigs on an acoustic, even if it's an older
upright.

Post by Jonathan ;o}
Jonathan ;o}

Thanks again & cheers,
Y

Jonathan ;o}

2005-10-22 11:23:40 UTC

You can't assume it will happen and could be a waste of money. My advice would
be to wait till it goes wrong. You'll hear when there's a problem! It doesn't
happen every time you switch on so you'll have lead-time to fix it.

It was explained to me once that the carbon deposits in the contact, which I
think are to help measure the velocity, start to stick together over time and
instead of creating a varied resistance, form a direct chain and so play the
note at full volume. It's mostly down to how often you use the machine.

Jonathan ;o}

Robert Steinberg

2005-10-21 14:36:52 UTC

Post by Yossarian
the old Roland FP-series (8?) used thist heavy Fatar keyboard block, which
became much louder and harder after 8-10 years.

I would agree with the louder/harder part but I don't think the FP8 used
a Fatar keyboard. I do believe it is a Roland. Certainly doesn't feel
like any Fatar I've played.

Post by Yossarian
Btw. I really hope my Yamaha P-120 will last more than 10 years of heavy
usage (practize and gigs).

Yes...let's hope so!!

--
Robert Steinberg
MidiOpera.Com
Vita gaia e terribile!

Rick Hollett

2005-10-21 16:34:18 UTC

Yeah my fp8 keyboard is as good as the day I bought it(10+ yrs ago) Have yet
to find a better action for my playing style anyways. Any thoughts on
Kurzweil's best offerings?

Rick Hollett

Post by Yossarian
the old Roland FP-series (8?) used thist heavy Fatar keyboard block, which
became much louder and harder after 8-10 years.

I would agree with the louder/harder part but I don't think the FP8 used
a Fatar keyboard. I do believe it is a Roland. Certainly doesn't feel
like any Fatar I've played.

Post by Yossarian
Btw. I really hope my Yamaha P-120 will last more than 10 years of heavy
usage (practize and gigs).

Yes...let's hope so!!
--
Robert Steinberg
MidiOpera.Com
Vita gaia e terribile!

Robert Steinberg

2005-10-21 17:07:25 UTC

Post by Rick Hollett
Yeah my fp8 keyboard is as good as the day I bought it(10+ yrs ago) Have yet
to find a better action for my playing style anyways. Any thoughts on
Kurzweil's best offerings?

I've never been fond of Kz and I'm certain they use the Fatar action.

I helped a friend pick out her new DP last week and had a chance to play
the P120/P60, Korg P200 and the Casio Px100. The Korg key dip is too
shallow to be very realistic and since it doesn't split bass, it's not
on my list. Like others, I enjoy the Yamaha but at under $500 the Casio
is very attractive. Fast action and good piano sounds. I've found one at
Beach Audio for $435 shipped but haven't bought it yet as I still can't
pull myself totally away from my FP8. It is a workhorse.

My friend Joanne bought the Korg.

--
Robert Steinberg
MidiOpera.Com
Vita gaia e terribile!

Rick Hollett

2005-10-21 17:20:00 UTC

There was a Kz in my studio awhile back and I must say, I'm actually
considering jumping ship(12 yr Roland fp8 guy). I know they're not as
popular. That's another plus IMO. Till then, my Roland is chugging along.
Nice if you could upgrade the sound. I'm a little tired of it. Fortunately
it's sitting next to my restored Williams upright.

cheers

Rick Hollett

Post by Rick Hollett
Yeah my fp8 keyboard is as good as the day I bought it(10+ yrs ago) Have yet
to find a better action for my playing style anyways. Any thoughts on
Kurzweil's best offerings?

I've never been fond of Kz and I'm certain they use the Fatar action.
I helped a friend pick out her new DP last week and had a chance to play
the P120/P60, Korg P200 and the Casio Px100. The Korg key dip is too
shallow to be very realistic and since it doesn't split bass, it's not
on my list. Like others, I enjoy the Yamaha but at under $500 the Casio
is very attractive. Fast action and good piano sounds. I've found one at
Beach Audio for $435 shipped but haven't bought it yet as I still can't
pull myself totally away from my FP8. It is a workhorse.
My friend Joanne bought the Korg.
--
Robert Steinberg
MidiOpera.Com
Vita gaia e terribile!

Yossarian

2005-10-21 18:46:34 UTC

Post by Rick Hollett
There was a Kz in my studio awhile back and I must say, I'm actually
considering jumping ship(12 yr Roland fp8 guy). I know they're not as
popular. That's another plus IMO. Till then, my Roland is chugging along.
Nice if you could upgrade the sound. I'm a little tired of it. Fortunately
it's sitting next to my restored Williams upright.
cheers

Hi Rick,
apropos upgradeable sound: did you (or another group member) ever try out
the Roland SRX-11 piano expansion board on a Fantom or V-Synth module?
Looks interesting. I wonder if it sounds "good" (as high prices might
suggest).

http://www.rolandus.com/products/details.asp?catid=13&subcatid=55&prodid=SRX%2D11

Cheers,
Y

rick hollett

2005-10-21 20:15:20 UTC

Not as of yet. I believe the Fantom is a synth keyboard anyway. I heard
somewhere there's a DP with a huge memory which could run the better sound
libraries which would be bliss.

Rick

Post by Rick Hollett
There was a Kz in my studio awhile back and I must say, I'm actually
considering jumping ship(12 yr Roland fp8 guy). I know they're not as
popular. That's another plus IMO. Till then, my Roland is chugging along.
Nice if you could upgrade the sound. I'm a little tired of it.
Fortunately it's sitting next to my restored Williams upright.
cheers

Hi Rick,
apropos upgradeable sound: did you (or another group member) ever try out
the Roland SRX-11 piano expansion board on a Fantom or V-Synth module?
Looks interesting. I wonder if it sounds "good" (as high prices might
suggest).
http://www.rolandus.com/products/details.asp?catid=13&subcatid=55&prodid=SRX%2D11
Cheers,
Y

Robert Steinberg

2005-10-21 17:39:19 UTC

Post by Robert Steinberg
I helped a friend pick out her new DP last week and had a chance to play
the P120/P60, Korg P200 and the Casio Px100.

Make that Casio Px 110, the newer model.

--
Robert Steinberg
MidiOpera.Com
Vita gaia e terribile!

Yossarian

2005-10-21 18:19:12 UTC

Post by Robert Steinberg
I've never been fond of Kz and I'm certain they use the Fatar action.

Robert,
I guess I've confused Kurzweil's and Roland's action.
That Doepfer technician had told me something like "there's two or three
other commercial brands that also use exactly THIS Fatar action" (in 1991),
and then named Kurzweil and Fatar - those two for sure.
Btw. the sales lady at Doepfer's told me in 2002 that Fatar had changed from
silver spring contacts to contact rubbers in the late 90s, because of the
corrosion. Every year I took the keyboard apart and polished them - a mess.
They seem to use the recent Fatar blocks TP/10MDF and TP/10MDS now:
http://www.doepfer.de/LMK_Uebersicht.htm

Fatar calls their contact system "dynamic bubble contacts":
http://www.fatar.com/Pages/TP_MDF_MDS.htm
http://www.studiologic.net/

I wonder which other digipiano brand also uses Fatar, they now offer a "GH"
version too, with 4 weight zones, very much like the Yamaha:
http://www.fatar.com/Pages/TP_40_GH_ES.htm

Michiel Post's expensive "Post Piano" is said to use a Fatar action, but
it's kind of a homemade thing and - to me - looks rather ridiculous.

http://www.postpiano.com/products/postpiano/index.php

Ok, enough. Just for the record.

Cheers,
Y

Dick Adams

2005-10-21 20:33:10 UTC

I quieted the action of my old Yamaha Clavinova CLP-360 by renewing the
felt strip which catches the hammers as they return to rest. It is a three-
layer strip, with a black surface, a red middle, and what looks to be a
layer of spongy double-sided tape.

Compared to replacing the "contact strip", which is a part of the electrical
switching system, and is very easy to do, replacing the above-mentioned
felt is rather a bitch, since it involves working through the hammers, and
because the old strip does not come off cleanly. Some self-made tools
can come in handy for that.

I do not suspect that piano techs (if they touch digitals, which most won't)
will readily undertake the job of replacing that particular felt strip, and
may advise instead to get a new keyboard instead.

Well, can't help with the Roland. But maybe there are similarities.

Andrys Basten

2005-11-01 07:18:29 UTC

Post by Robert Steinberg
I helped a friend pick out her new DP last week and had a chance to play
the P120/P60, Korg P200 and the Casio Px100. The Korg key dip is too
shallow to be very realistic and since it doesn't split bass, it's not
on my list. Like others, I enjoy the Yamaha but at under $500 the Casio
is very attractive. Fast action and good piano sounds. I've found one at
Beach Audio for $435 shipped but haven't bought it yet as I still can't
pull myself totally away from my FP8. It is a workhorse.
My friend Joanne bought the Korg.

I have a P80 and the Casio Px300
The Casio has some pretty nice built-in speakers, and at $600
is a very nice buy.

BUT, unlike the P60, the key noises upon release are huge
and the sound if used with speakers is not comparable to the
P60. Boomy bass.

But it's fun to play otherwise. While the P80 sounds pretty
realistic hooked up to speakers, the Casio just doesn't.
And the heavier key action of the Yamaha Px0 series is much better
for moving to acoustic grands, since it is heavier than
pianos like the Steinway B.

- Andrys

--
http://www.andrys.com

Robert Steinberg

2005-11-02 02:09:03 UTC

Post by Andrys Basten
BUT, unlike the P60, the key noises upon release are huge
and the sound if used with speakers is not comparable to the
P60. Boomy bass.

Thanks for the "heads up". I'll definately check that before buying a
Casio.

Post by Andrys Basten
But it's fun to play otherwise. While the P80 sounds pretty
realistic hooked up to speakers, the Casio just doesn't.

Yes. I think the 80 had better piano sounds than the 90.

Speaking of noisy keys on a digital, I just got through with a gig on a
Kurzweil 152 with noisy keys and hot keys. With people talking, the key
noise wasn't a bother but several keys were far more sensitive than
others. Made playing a real drag.

This Kz was only 3 years old and confirms my feelings about not liking
the KZ or the Fatar action at all. It wasn't abused in any way. It lives
in a country club and doesn't have a lot use...conclusion, it really is
a piece of crap and not the only one I've run into that has problems.

--
Robert Steinberg
MidiOpera.Com
Vita gaia e terribile!

Andrys Basten

2005-11-02 11:04:17 UTC

Post by Robert Steinberg
Thanks for the "heads up". I'll definately check that before buying a
Casio.

I do enjoy it for practicing on things late at night without
putting on headphones since you can turn the sound on the
built-in speakers way down but they're right there, so are easy
to hear (as opposed to external speakers).

If you like to use some of the other 'sounds' it's much better
to use than the Yamaha P60, having some nice ones. The P60 is
very awkward with double key presses to get certain settings.

Post by Andrys Basten
But it's fun to play otherwise. While the P80 sounds pretty
realistic hooked up to speakers, the Casio just doesn't.

Yes. I think the 80 had better piano sounds than the 90.

I do like my P80 better than a P120 I tried. The latter
has a bigger sample, so go figure.

Post by Robert Steinberg
Speaking of noisy keys on a digital, I just got through with a gig on a
Kurzweil 152 with noisy keys and hot keys. With people talking, the key
noise wasn't a bother but several keys were far more sensitive than
others. Made playing a real drag.

That's awful! Uneven keys and sudden loud ones. On the P80
the D an octave or so above middle C doesn't sustain like the
other notes, so it's not great for playing the key of D if
there's any melodic stuff up there.

There seem to be dead spots in that upper octave in many
of the keyboards.
True of acoustics too, though!

Post by Robert Steinberg
This Kz was only 3 years old and confirms my feelings about not liking
the KZ or the Fatar action at all. It wasn't abused in any way. It lives
in a country club and doesn't have a lot use...conclusion, it really is
a piece of crap and not the only one I've run into that has problems.

:-)

- Andrys

--
http://www.andrys.com

Yossarian

2005-10-21 17:07:52 UTC