Flat keys vs. sharp keys

Post by Dave C.
I am wrestling with the question as to why a song in a flat key (Body
and Soul in Db) sounds smooth and relaxing compared with playing it in
a sharp key, for example in the key or E which sounds much less
smooth.
And also along with this, why something played in the key of C sounds
so plain.
To help understanding this, I have been reading up on the theory
(Google searches) behind equal temperament tuning (vs. just tuning,
etc) hoping to help me to figure it out.
I have not yet found why the sense of flat keys are different than the
sharp keys.
Hope some one can have some thoughts on this.
Dave C.

To me flat keys are soft and sharp keys are the opposite: sharp.
Also sharp keys remind me of an acid taste.

D flat is very soft and round.
E sharp tastes like a lemon.
H (sorry, B, if you like) is bitter sweet.

G flat is ambivalent: soft or sharp.

C reminds me of clear water.

Therefore to transpose from, say, E sharp to C changes the
"taste" of the musik and makes it sound odd.

my2cents

--
Anders

J.B. Wood

2011-02-22 12:11:21 UTC

Post by Anders Wirzenius
To me flat keys are soft and sharp keys are the opposite: sharp.
Also sharp keys remind me of an acid taste.
D flat is very soft and round.
E sharp tastes like a lemon.
H (sorry, B, if you like) is bitter sweet.
G flat is ambivalent: soft or sharp.
C reminds me of clear water.
Therefore to transpose from, say, E sharp to C changes the
"taste" of the musik and makes it sound odd.
my2cents

Hello, and I think your comments require some clarification. Assuming
we're talking about musical instruments tuned in equal temperament (ET)
then you haven't made any distinction between enharmonic keys such as Gb
and F#. The idea of "key color" just doesn't seem to make sense using
ET, in which we're just shifting entire diatonic scales up or down in
pitch. Now, you might not like ET for other reasons, such as wide
(relative to a just major third) major thirds but that's a different matter.

I'm also assuming you don't possess absolute pitch but even if you do,
linking keys to specific human emotions is also a different matter IMHO.
That's not to say that a particular symphonic work or pop song can't
evoke particular emotional response(s), however. (The best film score
composers are quite adept at this.)

I'm not going to question your interpretation of keys but I wonder how
you would do in a blindfold test. Have someone (e.g. a pianist) pick a
work (you select it if you like) and transpose and perform it in another
key without your knowledge of that key and describe the effect upon
yourself. Have the pianist repeat this several times in different keys.
You might find yourself surprised by the results. Sincerely,

--
J. B. Wood e-mail: ***@hotmail.com

Anders Wirzenius

2011-02-22 17:26:57 UTC

Post by J.B. Wood
Hello, and I think your comments require some clarification. Assuming
we're talking about musical instruments tuned in equal temperament
(ET) then you haven't made any distinction between enharmonic keys
such as Gb and F#. The idea of "key color" just doesn't seem to make
sense using ET, in which we're just shifting entire diatonic scales up
or down in pitch. Now, you might not like ET for other reasons, such
as wide (relative to a just major third) major thirds but that's a
different matter.

You are right. By the ET definition there is no distinction
between Gb and F#.
I was talking about # versus b in general term in that sense that
you usually mark the main key as Eb and not d#.
And I have grown up with a piano, i.e. ET.

Post by J.B. Wood
I'm not going to question your interpretation of keys but I wonder how
you would do in a blindfold test. Have someone (e.g. a pianist) pick
a work (you select it if you like) and transpose and perform it in
another key without your knowledge of that key and describe the effect
upon yourself. Have the pianist repeat this several times in
different keys. You might find yourself surprised by the results.

I admit I am strongly biased. When trying to figure out the key,
I see the melody being played on a piano. Still, to me there is a
distinction between, say, C (clear, pure, transparent water) and
Db (soft, round, maybe a little muddy ... - hm - velvet?).

One more example:
I don't know the original or most usual key of Stars and Stripes,
but for some reason that I cannot technically explain, playing it
in C does not sound "right" to me.

--
Anders

Orlando Enrique Fiol

2011-02-20 22:54:18 UTC

If the piano is tuned in equal temperament, there should be no intervallic
difference between keys. perhaps, different registers sound more or less smooth
to your ears.

Post by Dave C.
And also along with this, why something played in the key of C sounds
so plain.

I think your associations with these keys might be coloring your judgments. You
probably think C major sounds plain because you know it has no sharps or flats.

Post by Dave C.
To help understanding this, I have been reading up on the theory
(Google searches) behind equal temperament tuning (vs. just tuning,
etc) hoping to help me to figure it out.

If you don't have absolute pitch, I doubt you're actually hearing what you
think you are in different keys. You're probably conflating your intellectual
understandings of different keys with actual sounds made in them.

Post by Dave C.
I have not yet found why the sense of flat keys are different than the
sharp keys.

Post by Dave C.
Hope some one can have some thoughts on this.

I doubt you will, in the absence of very specific tests to gage what you
actually hear rather than imagine. For starters, are you making these
observations about keys based on your own playing? If so, you already know
which key you're playing in, so that's hardly an objective situation. Try
asking a pianist friend to play tunes in different keys so you can hear how
they sound.

Orlando

Anders Wirzenius

2011-02-21 15:29:26 UTC

Post by Orlando Enrique Fiol
If you don't have absolute pitch, I doubt you're actually hearing what you
think you are in different keys. You're probably conflating your intellectual
understandings of different keys with actual sounds made in them.

I think there are several grades of absolute pitch.

You may be able to instantly reproduce a tone or tell which tone
an automobile engine produces.
You may be able to reproduce a tone after listening a little
more to the context.
You may be able to tell the key of only slow music.
You may have an AP only for some period after listening to or
playing music.
etc.

I know one person who complained about the notes for French horn
(F key). He had to transpose the notes to "actual" notes because
the written note sounded "wrong". The note C had to be transposed
to "actual" F before playing.
The same person is often half a tone wrong when guessing
it. The person tells he has grown up with a piano that was not
tempered regularly and was hence most of the time a little low.

I think it is very individual how the sound or music is
experienced in each persons brain. There is no "technical truth".

Post by Orlando Enrique Fiol
which key you're playing in, so that's hardly an objective situation. Try
asking a pianist friend to play tunes in different keys so you can hear how
they sound.

That's a good way to find your personal way to feel different keys.

Post by Orlando Enrique Fiol
Orlando

--
Anders

Dave C.

2011-02-22 01:36:57 UTC

Post by Anders Wirzenius

I think there are several grades of absolute pitch.
You may be able to instantly reproduce a tone or tell which tone
an automobile engine produces.
You may be able to reproduce a tone after listening a little
more to the context.
You may be able to tell the key of only slow music.
You may have an AP only for some period after listening to or
playing music.
etc.
I know one person who complained about the notes for French horn
(F key). He had to transpose the notes to "actual" notes because
the written note sounded "wrong". The note C had to be transposed
to "actual" F before playing.
The same person is often half a tone wrong when guessing
it. The person tells he has grown up with a piano that was not
tempered regularly and was hence most of the time a little low.
I think it is very individual how the sound or music is
experienced in each persons brain. There is no "technical truth".

Post by Orlando Enrique Fiol
which key you're playing in, so that's hardly an objective situation. Try
asking a pianist friend to play tunes in different keys so you can hear how
they sound.

That's a good way to find your personal way to feel different keys.

Post by Orlando Enrique Fiol
Orlando

--
Anders

Thanks for all the replies.

My keyboard is a Yamaha P-80 electronic keyboard, equal temperament
tuned, and I definitely can tell the difference, however subtle,
between playing "Body and Soul" in Db and in E. I still can tell this
difference when playing on an acoustic piano although maybe it is not
perfectly in tune. Also, I do not have perfect pitch.

Discussing it with a symphonic trombone and piano player (way out of
my league), he seems to recall that some of the notes in the scale are
off by a few cents one way or the other by design for some unknown
reason. This could contribute to it. He added that early composers
knew this somewhat and that is why some minuets are written in sharp
keys, etc.

Just for fun, play the first half dozen bars of Moonlight Sonata, 1st
mvt, in the original key of E, then play it transposed one-half step
down in the key of Eb, and somehow it sure sounds different.

I am trying to find an technical reason for this, although I do not
think it is a psychological reason.

Is there anyone out there does any piano tuning that may have an idea
on this?

Thanks

Dave C.

Steve Freides

2011-02-24 20:37:10 UTC

Read "Musicophilia" if you haven't already - you'll enjoy it.

I have perfect pitch (took dictation in ink in college - yes, one of
those). You have some form of it, it sounds like. There is a lot to
read on the subject of keys and colors, and on perfect pitch. Google is
your friend, just have at it.

It's not related to piano tuning - that's a whole _other_ discussion.

I also own a similar keyboard, a P-85, but do most of my
playing/practicing on a baby grand piano. Your P-80 is basically cloned
from a grand piano so what applies to a real piano will apply to your
keyboard as well.

-S-

Post by Anders Wirzenius

Post by Orlando Enrique Fiol
If you don't have absolute pitch, I doubt you're actually hearing
what you think you are in different keys. You're probably
conflating your intellectual understandings of different keys with
actual sounds made in them.

I think there are several grades of absolute pitch.
You may be able to instantly reproduce a tone or tell which tone
an automobile engine produces.
You may be able to reproduce a tone after listening a little
more to the context.
You may be able to tell the key of only slow music.
You may have an AP only for some period after listening to or
playing music.
etc.
I know one person who complained about the notes for French horn
(F key). He had to transpose the notes to "actual" notes because
the written note sounded "wrong". The note C had to be transposed
to "actual" F before playing.
The same person is often half a tone wrong when guessing
it. The person tells he has grown up with a piano that was not
tempered regularly and was hence most of the time a little low.
I think it is very individual how the sound or music is
experienced in each persons brain. There is no "technical truth".

Post by Orlando Enrique Fiol
which key you're playing in, so that's hardly an objective
situation. Try asking a pianist friend to play tunes in different
keys so you can hear how they sound.

That's a good way to find your personal way to feel different keys.

Post by Orlando Enrique Fiol
Orlando

--
Anders

Thanks for all the replies.
My keyboard is a Yamaha P-80 electronic keyboard, equal temperament
tuned, and I definitely can tell the difference, however subtle,
between playing "Body and Soul" in Db and in E. I still can tell this
difference when playing on an acoustic piano although maybe it is not
perfectly in tune. Also, I do not have perfect pitch.
Discussing it with a symphonic trombone and piano player (way out of
my league), he seems to recall that some of the notes in the scale are
off by a few cents one way or the other by design for some unknown
reason. This could contribute to it. He added that early composers
knew this somewhat and that is why some minuets are written in sharp
keys, etc.
Just for fun, play the first half dozen bars of Moonlight Sonata, 1st
mvt, in the original key of E, then play it transposed one-half step
down in the key of Eb, and somehow it sure sounds different.
I am trying to find an technical reason for this, although I do not
think it is a psychological reason.
Is there anyone out there does any piano tuning that may have an idea
on this?
Thanks
Dave C.

Dave C.

2011-02-25 00:12:01 UTC

Post by Steve Freides
Read "Musicophilia" if you haven't already - you'll enjoy it.
I have perfect pitch (took dictation in ink in college - yes, one of
those). You have some form of it, it sounds like. There is a lot to
read on the subject of keys and colors, and on perfect pitch. Google is
your friend, just have at it.
It's not related to piano tuning - that's a whole _other_ discussion.
I also own a similar keyboard, a P-85, but do most of my
playing/practicing on a baby grand piano. Your P-80 is basically cloned
from a grand piano so what applies to a real piano will apply to your
keyboard as well.
I listened to a few videos from Oliver Sachs and it is quite interesting. I have located his book at our local library. I do not believe I have perfect pitch, but pretty good relative pitch. I know a trombone player with perfect pitch and he felt it was a curse in that where ever he played, if it was not exactly in pitch, it tended to be very distracting.

Thanks for the tip. I may never find out why flat keys seem so
smooth. Maybe "Musicophilia" might shed some light on it.

Regards,
Dave C.

Steve Freides

2011-02-25 00:50:13 UTC

Read - a lot - about perfect pitch before you decide you don't have it.
In the end, what's in a name, anyway? But you may find that what you
have, with a little work on your part, could turn into functional
perfect pitch.

Anyone who has perfect pitch can complain about it all they want - ask
them if they'd rather _not_ have it, and I assure you, they wouldn't
want to give it up.

I was in music school (college) before I realized I had perfect pitch -
I just never made any mistakes at dictation or sight-singing, and people
were getting really pissed off at me when they asked me if I had perfect
pitch and I answered, "No," so I just started answering, "Yes,"
instead - true story.

-S-

Post by Steve Freides
Read "Musicophilia" if you haven't already - you'll enjoy it.
I have perfect pitch (took dictation in ink in college - yes, one of
those). You have some form of it, it sounds like. There is a lot to
read on the subject of keys and colors, and on perfect pitch. Google
is
your friend, just have at it.
It's not related to piano tuning - that's a whole _other_ discussion.
I also own a similar keyboard, a P-85, but do most of my
playing/practicing on a baby grand piano. Your P-80 is basically
cloned
from a grand piano so what applies to a real piano will apply to your
keyboard as well.
I listened to a few videos from Oliver Sachs and it is quite
interesting. I have located his book at our local library. I do
not believe I have perfect pitch, but pretty good relative pitch. I
know a trombone player with perfect pitch and he felt it was a curse
in that where ever he played, if it was not exactly in pitch, it
tended to be very distracting.

Thanks for the tip. I may never find out why flat keys seem so
smooth. Maybe "Musicophilia" might shed some light on it.
Regards,
Dave C.

Frisbieinstein

2011-02-25 07:23:12 UTC

A number of composers -- Schubert was one of them -- attributed
different characters to different keys. But as I recall none of these
composers agreed as to what those characteristics were.

Steve Freides

2011-02-25 15:07:41 UTC

Post by Frisbieinstein

Post by Dave C.
I am wrestling with the question as to why a song in a flat key (Body
and Soul in Db) sounds smooth and relaxing compared with playing it
in a sharp key, for example in the key or E which sounds much less
smooth.
And also along with this, why something played in the key of C sounds
so plain.
To help understanding this, I have been reading up on the theory
(Google searches) behind equal temperament tuning (vs. just tuning,
etc) hoping to help me to figure it out.
I have not yet found why the sense of flat keys are different than
the sharp keys.
Hope some one can have some thoughts on this.
Dave C.

A number of composers -- Schubert was one of them -- attributed
different characters to different keys. But as I recall none of these
composers agreed as to what those characteristics were.

This subject is touched on in Musicophilia - apparently many composers
saw colors associated with different keys, but not the same colors.

-S-

J.B. Wood

2011-02-25 20:14:33 UTC

Post by Steve Freides

Post by Frisbieinstein

Post by Dave C.
I am wrestling with the question as to why a song in a flat key (Body
and Soul in Db) sounds smooth and relaxing compared with playing it
in a sharp key, for example in the key or E which sounds much less
smooth.
And also along with this, why something played in the key of C sounds
so plain.
To help understanding this, I have been reading up on the theory
(Google searches) behind equal temperament tuning (vs. just tuning,
etc) hoping to help me to figure it out.
I have not yet found why the sense of flat keys are different than
the sharp keys.
Hope some one can have some thoughts on this.
Dave C.

A number of composers -- Schubert was one of them -- attributed
different characters to different keys. But as I recall none of these
composers agreed as to what those characteristics were.

This subject is touched on in Musicophilia - apparently many composers
saw colors associated with different keys, but not the same colors.
-S-

Hello, and are we discussing key color/characteristics of, say, an
irregular (well) temperament or ET? In the case of ET, and certainly in
the absence of absolute pitch ability, having a particular key evoke
some human emotion still doesn't make sense. Perhaps those possessing
absolute pitch can have a "favorite" key(s) just like folks have
favorite visual colors. In the absence of absolute pitch ability, a
singer could favor a key in a particular octave simply because it
accommodates his/her voice range. Modulating to different keys in a
musical work reduces the musical boredom that would ensue with repeating
the same melody in the same key a number of times. Sincerely,

--
J. B. Wood e-mail: ***@hotmail.com

Steve Freides

2011-02-26 01:48:04 UTC

Post by J.B. Wood
Hello, and are we discussing key color/characteristics of, say, an
irregular (well) temperament or ET? In the case of ET, and certainly
in the absence of absolute pitch ability, having a particular key
evoke some human emotion still doesn't make sense. Perhaps those
possessing absolute pitch can have a "favorite" key(s) just like
folks have favorite visual colors.

Yes, that's why I suggested the OP may have more perfect pitch than he
realizes.

I am not one of those with perfect pitch who associates colors or a
particular character with any key. Maybe it's because I grew up playing
jazz and did (and still do) play lots of things in all 12 keys. Or
maybe it's because I'm kind of ignorant in a visual sense - my wife kids
me that whatever auditory gifts the deity upstairs gave me, he took away
on the visual side. I don't even notice when my wife gets her hair cut,
has new clothes, etc., but I sure do hear everything and anything, it
seems.

-S-

Dave C.

2011-02-26 23:25:39 UTC

Post by Steve Freides

Yes, that's why I suggested the OP may have more perfect pitch than he
realizes.
I am not one of those with perfect pitch who associates colors or a
particular character with any key. Maybe it's because I grew up playing
jazz and did (and still do) play lots of things in all 12 keys. Or
maybe it's because I'm kind of ignorant in a visual sense - my wife kids
me that whatever auditory gifts the deity upstairs gave me, he took away
on the visual side. I don't even notice when my wife gets her hair cut,
has new clothes, etc., but I sure do hear everything and anything, it
seems.
-S-

I just picked up my copy of "Musicophilia" today. I don't know what
I'll find, but it looks like a lot of good information.

As I mentioned earlier, I have a Yamaha P-80 which is equal
temperament tuned. I have the keyboard sitting on two 33-inch book
shelf hi-fi speakers with a hi-fi 150 watt amp. Also I use high
quality head phones as an alternate. I distinctly sense Eb as smoother
than the key of E with both set-ups.

Today I was in our Cultural Center where there was a grand piano in
the hall and sure enough Eb was definitely smoother that E. A few
local artists who should know some of these things agreed but came up
a little short for the reason.

Well, I may never feel that there is a distinct answer here, but it
sure has generated a very nice dialogue. Thanks.

Dave C.

Steve Freides

2011-02-27 18:20:57 UTC

Post by Dave C.
Today I was in our Cultural Center where there was a grand piano in
the hall and sure enough Eb was definitely smoother that E. A few
local artists who should know some of these things agreed but came up
a little short for the reason.
Well, I may never feel that there is a distinct answer here, but it
sure has generated a very nice dialogue. Thanks.

As I hope you'll learn from reading that book, there is no distinct
answer. It has to do with how you, and your particular combination of
nature and nuture, are wired for things like this. My own reaction to
things like this is, if anything, the opposite of yours - I listen to
keys and my though is always, "I _think_ it's in X key but I'm not
sure" - and I'm never wrong. But they all seems the same to me.

-S-

Dave C.

2011-03-18 03:11:27 UTC

Post by Steve Freides
As I hope you'll learn from reading that book, there is no distinct
answer. It has to do with how you, and your particular combination of
nature and nuture, are wired for things like this. My own reaction to
things like this is, if anything, the opposite of yours - I listen to
keys and my though is always, "I _think_ it's in X key but I'm not
sure" - and I'm never wrong. But they all seems the same to me.
-S-

I am reading the awesome Musicophilia by Oliver Sachs and I am one-
third through it. It is extremely easy read and every musician should
read it. Thanks very much for leading me to the book. As the book
sub-title says, it is "Tales of Music and the Brain" and written in
every day language. I may not find my answer here, it is a great
perspective on how we are affected bu music

Best regards,

Dave

Anders Wirzenius

2011-03-18 06:11:57 UTC

+1
Thanks for directing me, too.
I am currently reading chapter 8 (of 29). The book has already
revealed amazing things about amusia that I did not know.
We seem to be, indeed, very different about how we experience
noise and the special kind of noise that non-amusia-individuals
call music.

--
Anders

Steve Freides

2011-03-18 20:28:19 UTC

Post by Anders Wirzenius

Post by Steve Freides
As I hope you'll learn from reading that book, there is no distinct
answer. It has to do with how you, and your particular combination
of nature and nuture, are wired for things like this. My own
reaction to things like this is, if anything, the opposite of yours
- I listen to keys and my though is always, "I _think_ it's in X
key but I'm not sure" - and I'm never wrong. But they all seems the
same to me.
-S-

I am reading the awesome Musicophilia by Oliver Sachs and I am one-
third through it. It is extremely easy read and every musician
should read it. Thanks very much for leading me to the book. As
the book sub-title says, it is "Tales of Music and the Brain" and
written in every day language. I may not find my answer here, it is
a great perspective on how we are affected bu music
Best regards,
Dave

Glad to be of service. Oliver Sachs writes very well, and it's my
intention to read more by him.

BTW, the other book often cited on this general subject is called, "This
Is Your Brain On Music," and I really did not care for it. I couldn't
make myself finish reading it, but I think it might be better reading
for people who know little or nothing about music.

-S-

-S-

Dave C.

2011-02-26 01:01:20 UTC

Post by Steve Freides

Post by Frisbieinstein

Post by Dave C.
I am wrestling with the question as to why a song in a flat key (Body
and Soul in Db) sounds smooth and relaxing compared with playing it
in a sharp key, for example in the key or E which sounds much less
smooth.
And also along with this, why something played in the key of C sounds
so plain.
To help understanding this, I have been reading up on the theory
(Google searches) behind equal temperament tuning (vs. just tuning,
etc) hoping to help me to figure it out.
I have not yet found why the sense of flat keys are different than
the sharp keys.
Hope some one can have some thoughts on this.
Dave C.

A number of composers -- Schubert was one of them -- attributed
different characters to different keys. But as I recall none of these
composers agreed as to what those characteristics were.

This subject is touched on in Musicophilia - apparently many composers
saw colors associated with different keys, but not the same colors.
-S-

You all have given me an awful lot to think about. Library called
today and has a copy of Musicophilia waiting for me. Meanwhile, on
YouTube, Oliver Sachs has more that a dozen clips on this subject,
most of which I viewed.

My whole thinking breaks up a little when thinking of Gb or F#, Eb or
D#.

My next step after I send this post is to Google Perfect Pitch.

Dave C.

masonc

2011-04-20 19:31:08 UTC

I was just passing by, but I wonder if this thread is
being grasped by the wrong end.

Composers select the key. Composers think of
flat keys as soft, sharp keys as hard. They
put soft music in flat keys, hard music in sharp key.

--
masonc

J.B. Wood

2011-04-21 18:40:50 UTC

Post by masonc
I was just passing by, but I wonder if this thread is
being grasped by the wrong end.
Composers select the key. Composers think of
flat keys as soft, sharp keys as hard. They
put soft music in flat keys, hard music in sharp key.

Hello, and I guess I learned something new. So by interpolation a piece
composed in a hypothetical 1/4-tone key (e.g. between C-C# or Db-E) must
be a Goldilocks ("just right") key. Sincerely,

--
J. B. Wood e-mail: ***@hotmail.com

RVG

2011-04-28 04:45:00 UTC

In Western full-tempered music there are no harmonic differences between
scales, but there are between modes. So for any given scale (say C for
example) you have a palette of modes from the seven diatonic modes to
more elaborate ones, called altered modes, like harmonic and melodic
minor for example. It is the mode that provides the mood of a given tune.
For example the mode of the 2nd degree, based on D but using the notes
of C major, is very introverted because it contains the notes of the D
minor chord and starts with a half-one (also called diminished second or
minor second). It's a mode that is extensively used in Celtic folk
music, especially in Ireland and Brittany. It's called the Doric mode.

Now there's the mode of the 4th degree, based on F and using the notes
of C major. It's called Lydian and is very open, extraverted and
triumphant. It's because it contains the notes of the F Major chord and
starts with three full tones (F G and A), making it sound "more major
than major". It's used a lot in Russian church, military and folk music.

By using various modes in a complex composition, the composer creates a
wave or pattern of moods and expressions.

Now about the tonalities themselves, what difference are there between
them ? Well, one: height. :-)
The tonal or fundamental of each scale is either higher or lower than C,
and you then write your melody/dies depending on the *voice* you
attribute it to. Basically you can't use the same range of notes for an
alto and a barytone. If you do, you'll have to transpose to another
scale, but that won't change the notes of your song nor the mood(s) of
your entire composition, melody and harmony.

In a piano composition where this range notion seems irrelevant, it's
still important to separate the various voices of a composition and make
sure it's playable with two hands and ten fingers. Other than that any
scale goes.

I hope I've been helpful. Just check Google for words you may not be
familar with, and don't be shy to ask further questions.

--
The imagination is not a State: it is the Human existence itself."
William Blake

http://rvgmusic.bandcamp.com/
http://www.jamendo.com/fr/user/RVG95
http://bluedusk.blogspot.com/

J.B. Wood

2011-04-28 10:43:06 UTC

In Western full-tempered music...

Hello, and "full-tempered"? What do you mean by "full"?. I think you
are referring to a scale tuning in equal temperament. (BTW, IMHO this
thread is more appropriate for rec.music.theory) Sincerely,

--
J. B. Wood e-mail: ***@hotmail.com

CTessier

2011-04-28 12:22:04 UTC

It's called Dorian mode and is used extensively in plainchant, a.k.a
Gregorian.

Christian

Post by RVG
--
The imagination is not a State: it is the Human existence itself."
William Blake
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laraine

2011-04-28 16:25:11 UTC

It's called Dorian mode and is used extensively in plainchant, a.k.a
Gregorian.
Christian

We've been doing Gregorian chant at church,
and the books use numbers to indicate which
mode for a particular chant; here's some info.
from wikipedia:

Modes 1 and 2 are the authentic and plagal
modes ending on D, sometimes called Dorian
and Hypodorian.
Modes 3 and 4 are the authentic and plagal
modes ending on E, sometimes called Phrygian
and Hypophrygian.
Modes 5 and 6 are the authentic and plagal
modes ending on F, sometimes called Lydian
and Hypolydian.
Modes 7 and 8 are the authentic and plagal
modes ending on G, sometimes called Mixolydian
and Hypomixolydian.

C.

CTessier

2011-04-29 13:09:11 UTC

It's called Dorian mode and is used extensively in plainchant, a.k.a
Gregorian.
Christian

We've been doing Gregorian chant at church,
and the books use numbers to indicate which
mode for a particular chant; here's some info.
Modes 1 and 2 are the authentic and plagal
modes ending on D, sometimes called Dorian
and Hypodorian.
Modes 3 and 4 are the authentic and plagal
modes ending on E, sometimes called Phrygian
and Hypophrygian.
Modes 5 and 6 are the authentic and plagal
modes ending on F, sometimes called Lydian
and Hypolydian.
Modes 7 and 8 are the authentic and plagal
modes ending on G, sometimes called Mixolydian
and Hypomixolydian.
C.- Masquer le texte des messages précédents -
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According to Prof. Greenberg Gregorian chant is a misnomer, IIRC the
Pope Gregory I had nothing to do with it since he was long dead when
plainchant was adopted by the Church.

Christian

laraine

2011-05-18 01:30:41 UTC

It's called Dorian mode and is used extensively in plainchant, a.k.a
Gregorian.
Christian

According to Prof. Greenberg Gregorian chant is a misnomer, IIRC the
Pope Gregory I had nothing to do with it since he was long dead when
plainchant was adopted by the Church.
Christian

Fair enough, but
do you like the term "plainchant"?

I prefer something like
"monotonic chant", but
people have used "Gregorian"
for a long time, I imagine.

BTW, you don't have to start
Dorian on D. It's moveable, just
like scales are.

The important thing is the pattern
of half and whole steps.

C.

laraine

2011-05-18 01:34:56 UTC

It's called Dorian mode and is used extensively in plainchant, a.k.a
Gregorian.
Christian

According to Prof. Greenberg Gregorian chant is a misnomer, IIRC the
Pope Gregory I had nothing to do with it since he was long dead when
plainchant was adopted by the Church.
Christian

Fair enough, but
do you like the term "plainchant"?
I prefer something like
"monotonic chant", but
people have used "Gregorian"
for a long time, I imagine.

Maybe it should be "monophonic"?

C.

Post by laraine
BTW, you don't have to start
Dorian on D. It's moveable, just
like scales are.
The important thing is the pattern
of half and whole steps.
C.

laraine

2011-05-19 17:42:50 UTC

It's called Dorian mode and is used extensively in plainchant, a.k.a
Gregorian.
Christian

According to Prof. Greenberg Gregorian chant is a misnomer, IIRC the
Pope Gregory I had nothing to do with it since he was long dead when
plainchant was adopted by the Church.
Christian

Fair enough, but
do you like the term "plainchant"?

For one thing, it's not altogether
'plain.' There are lots of timing
indications in it, and to make it
work at all, you have to use a certain
rhythm.

C.

CTessier

2011-05-25 15:09:07 UTC

It's called Dorian mode and is used extensively in plainchant, a.k.a
Gregorian.
Christian

According to Prof. Greenberg Gregorian chant is a misnomer, IIRC the
Pope Gregory I had nothing to do with it since he was long dead when
plainchant was adopted by the Church.
Christian

Fair enough, but
do you like the term "plainchant"?

For one thing, it's not altogether
'plain.' There are lots of timing
indications in it, and to make it
work at all, you have to use a certain
rhythm.
C.- Masquer le texte des messages précédents -
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The term plain here refers to the fact that the texture is monophonic,
i.e., they all sing the same note at the same time. And the rythm is
dictated by the words.

Christian

laraine

2011-05-30 22:14:15 UTC

It's called Dorian mode and is used extensively in plainchant, a.k.a
Gregorian.
Christian

According to Prof. Greenberg Gregorian chant is a misnomer, IIRC the
Pope Gregory I had nothing to do with it since he was long dead when
plainchant was adopted by the Church.
Christian

Fair enough, but
do you like the term "plainchant"?

The term plain here refers to the fact that the texture is monophonic,
i.e., they all sing the same note at the same time. And the rythm is
dictated by the words.
Christian

I'm seeing the terms plainsong
and plainchant, so ok...

How the rhythm is done is
controversial, I guess because
no one really knows. One book
used by my church discusses one idea
of grouping notes (neumes) into
2's and 3's.

C.

laraine

2011-05-19 20:03:52 UTC

It's called Dorian mode and is used extensively in plainchant, a.k.a
Gregorian.
Christian

So, correct me if I'm wrong:

The Hypodorian (or Aeolian) corresponds to
a modern natural minor scale, and the Hypolydian
corresponds to a modern major scale.

C.

laraine

2011-05-19 20:20:07 UTC

It's called Dorian mode and is used extensively in plainchant, a.k.a
Gregorian.
Christian

The Hypodorian (or Aeolian) corresponds to
a modern natural minor scale, and the Hypolydian
corresponds to a modern major scale.
C.

Ok, the medieval Hypolydian is not quite major,
but there's a modern mode called Ionian that is.

Here's a nice page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_mode

C.

laraine

2011-05-19 20:35:25 UTC

It's called Dorian mode and is used extensively in plainchant, a.k.a
Gregorian.
Christian

The Hypodorian (or Aeolian) corresponds to
a modern natural minor scale, and the Hypolydian
corresponds to a modern major scale.
C.

Ok, the medieval Hypolydian is not quite major,

(-->One should say Western RC Church
rather than medieval.)

C.

Post by laraine
but there's a modern mode called Ionian that is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_mode
C.

RVG

2011-05-04 10:02:36 UTC

Post by CTessier
It's called Dorian mode and is used extensively in plainchant, a.k.a
Gregorian.

--
The imagination is not a State: it is the Human existence itself."
William Blake

http://rvgmusic.bandcamp.com/
http://www.jamendo.com/fr/user/RVG95
http://bluedusk.blogspot.com/

CTessier

2011-05-04 13:41:28 UTC

Post by CTessier
It's called Dorian mode and is used extensively in plainchant, a.k.a
Gregorian.

Yup, sorry, my brain went like: D mode > Celtic > Scotland > Inverness >
Doric through some idiosyncratic asociations. :)
BTW English isn't my native language so sometimes my adjectives sound
funny if I don't check the dictionary.
--
The imagination is not a State: it is the Human existence itself."
William Blake
http://rvgmusic.bandcamp.com/http://www.jamendo.com/fr/user/RVG95http://bluedusk.blogspot.com/

English is not my native language either. And Doric applies to
architecture, especially to Greek columns.

Christian

laraine

2011-05-19 23:26:26 UTC