Discussion:
THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND THE PIANO
(too old to reply)
albert landa
2005-02-28 21:52:09 UTC
Permalink
I have a little 8 year old pupil who is brought to her lesson each week by
her mother. A charming girl but not particularly gifted or physically well
adapted to learning a keyboard instrument.She always seemed to enjoy the
lessons and used to skip up the steps to the studio with a big smile on her
face.Over the last month I have noticed a change.She seems to have lost a
lot of confidence, is very tentative and doesn't smile.

Her mother supervises her practice sessions at home and it appears has
started screaming at her at the least sign of a slip or error.It also
appears that the mother learnt piano as a child and was taught by a Catholic
nun who used to hit her over the knuckles with a ruler whenever she made an
error or slip.The mother is STILL traumatised by these memories and seems to
be unaware that she is starting to replicate this behaviour with her little
girl.

In my long teaching career I must say that this is not the first time I have
come across this sort of thing.I have had quite a few mature-age students
who are returning to the piano after a long gap which was often the result
of giving up the piano because this sort of treatment by their catholic-nun
teachers caused them to loathe the piano and music generally.One pupil told
me that as well as screaming at her and hitting her over the knuckles the
nun strongly ( and erroneously) believed that it was important to hold the
wrists very high.To this end she used to hold a very sharp pencil under the
wrist of the girl and if the wrist dropped too low.......well, you know.It
was also difficult and time-consuming to get them to relax and ultimately
enjoy their new contact with the piano.

It must be said that I have come across the occasional excellent nun-teacher
who is loved by her students and does good work, but this is relatively rare
and is far outweighed by the negative phenomenon described above.

What is it about the Catholic church that produces this sort of abusive
behaviour and destroys the love for music and the piano of so many innocent
children?

albert landa
Tom Shaw
2005-02-28 22:58:45 UTC
Permalink
Well al, I'll tell you. The Roman Catholic Church is run by a bunch of
crappy popes who are supposed to lay off the nuns. Now that makes the nuns
a little edgy if you know what I mean. Accordingly, and according to the
best principles of Ziggie Freud, they tend to become a little
sado-masochistic with emphasis on the sadism. So when they teach piano or
mathematics they beat the hell out of the students for fun. Now in a
secular world it is the fascists who beat the hell out of every body whereas
in America we try only to beat the hell out of terrorists. Therefore in
American we seldom beat the hell out of children taking piano lessons
anymore in spite of the Catholic Church. You should know by the way that
Protestants never beat the hell out of children taking piano and that is why
the Catholic piano players are so much better than the Protestant piano
players, at least here in the States.
So you have to make a choice: J.S.Bach or Floyd Cramer.
TS
Post by albert landa
I have a little 8 year old pupil who is brought to her lesson each week by
her mother. A charming girl but not particularly gifted or physically well
adapted to learning a keyboard instrument.She always seemed to enjoy the
lessons and used to skip up the steps to the studio with a big smile on her
face.Over the last month I have noticed a change.She seems to have lost a
lot of confidence, is very tentative and doesn't smile.
Her mother supervises her practice sessions at home and it appears has
started screaming at her at the least sign of a slip or error.It also
appears that the mother learnt piano as a child and was taught by a Catholic
nun who used to hit her over the knuckles with a ruler whenever she made an
error or slip.The mother is STILL traumatised by these memories and seems to
be unaware that she is starting to replicate this behaviour with her little
girl.
In my long teaching career I must say that this is not the first time I have
come across this sort of thing.I have had quite a few mature-age students
who are returning to the piano after a long gap which was often the result
of giving up the piano because this sort of treatment by their catholic-nun
teachers caused them to loathe the piano and music generally.One pupil told
me that as well as screaming at her and hitting her over the knuckles the
nun strongly ( and erroneously) believed that it was important to hold the
wrists very high.To this end she used to hold a very sharp pencil under the
wrist of the girl and if the wrist dropped too low.......well, you know.It
was also difficult and time-consuming to get them to relax and ultimately
enjoy their new contact with the piano.
It must be said that I have come across the occasional excellent nun-teacher
who is loved by her students and does good work, but this is relatively rare
and is far outweighed by the negative phenomenon described above.
What is it about the Catholic church that produces this sort of abusive
behaviour and destroys the love for music and the piano of so many innocent
children?
albert landa
Radu Focshaner
2005-02-28 23:23:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Shaw
You should know by the way that
Protestants never beat the hell out of children taking piano and that is why
the Catholic piano players are so much better than the Protestant piano
players, at least here in the States.
And Greg Presley is the best proof !

As well as

a.. Charles Alkan
a.. Vladimir Ashkenazy
a.. Emanuel Ax
a.. Victor Babin
a.. Gina Bachauer
a.. Dmitri Bashkirov
a.. Daniel Barenboim
a.. Simon Barere
a.. Lazar Berman
a.. Victor Borge
a.. Alexander Borovsky
a.. Alexander Brailowsky
a.. Yefim Bronfman
a.. Ignaz Bruell
a.. Shura Cherkassky
a.. Harriet Cohen
a.. Bella Davidovich
a.. Misha Dichter
a.. Samuil Feinberg
a.. Vladimir Feltsman
a.. Annie Fischer
a.. Leon Fleisher
a.. Yakov Flier
a.. Claude Frank
a.. Ignaz Friedman
a.. Emil Gilels
a.. Grigory Ginsburg
a.. Leopold Godowsky
a.. Alexander Goldenweiser
a.. Richard Goode
a.. Gary Graffman
a.. Mark Hambourg
a.. Clara Haskil
a.. Myra Hess
a.. Vladimir Horovitz
a.. Eugene Istomin
a.. Byron Janis
a.. Joseph Kalichstein
a.. William Kapell
a.. Julius Katchen
a.. Louis Kentner
a.. Evgeny Kissin
a.. Vladimir Krainev
a.. Lili Kraus
a.. Wanda Landowska
a.. Ruth Laredo
a.. Josef Lh?vinne
a.. Rosina Lh?vinne
a.. Radu Lupu
a.. Hephzibah Menuhin
a.. Benno Moiseiwitsch
a.. Ignaz Moscheles
a.. Murray Perahia
a.. Menahem Pressler
a.. Andr? Previn
a.. Michael Roll
a.. Moritz Rosenthal
a.. Anton Rubinstein
a.. Artur Rubinstein
a.. Nikolai Rubinstein
a.. Harold Samuel
a.. Andr?s Schiff
a.. Artur Schnabel
a.. Peter Serkin
a.. Rudolf Serkin
a.. Solomon (Cutner)
a.. Wladyslaw Szpilman
a.. Mark Taimanov
a.. Carl Tausig
a.. Sigismund Thalberg
a.. Rosalyn Tureck
a.. Isabella Vengerova
a.. Alexis Weissenberg
a.. Paul Wittgenstein
a.. Maria Yudina
a.. Gary Rimar
albert landa
2005-02-28 23:28:00 UTC
Permalink
Wow! Well done, Radu! I have printed off your list of "Catholic" pianists as
a reference.But why did you exclude Walter Gieseking?


albert landa
Post by Radu Focshaner
Post by Tom Shaw
You should know by the way that
Protestants never beat the hell out of children taking piano and that is why
the Catholic piano players are so much better than the Protestant piano
players, at least here in the States.
And Greg Presley is the best proof !
As well as
a.. Charles Alkan
a.. Vladimir Ashkenazy
a.. Emanuel Ax
a.. Victor Babin
a.. Gina Bachauer
a.. Dmitri Bashkirov
a.. Daniel Barenboim
a.. Simon Barere
a.. Lazar Berman
a.. Victor Borge
a.. Alexander Borovsky
a.. Alexander Brailowsky
a.. Yefim Bronfman
a.. Ignaz Bruell
a.. Shura Cherkassky
a.. Harriet Cohen
a.. Bella Davidovich
a.. Misha Dichter
a.. Samuil Feinberg
a.. Vladimir Feltsman
a.. Annie Fischer
a.. Leon Fleisher
a.. Yakov Flier
a.. Claude Frank
a.. Ignaz Friedman
a.. Emil Gilels
a.. Grigory Ginsburg
a.. Leopold Godowsky
a.. Alexander Goldenweiser
a.. Richard Goode
a.. Gary Graffman
a.. Mark Hambourg
a.. Clara Haskil
a.. Myra Hess
a.. Vladimir Horovitz
a.. Eugene Istomin
a.. Byron Janis
a.. Joseph Kalichstein
a.. William Kapell
a.. Julius Katchen
a.. Louis Kentner
a.. Evgeny Kissin
a.. Vladimir Krainev
a.. Lili Kraus
a.. Wanda Landowska
a.. Ruth Laredo
a.. Josef Lh?vinne
a.. Rosina Lh?vinne
a.. Radu Lupu
a.. Hephzibah Menuhin
a.. Benno Moiseiwitsch
a.. Ignaz Moscheles
a.. Murray Perahia
a.. Menahem Pressler
a.. Andr? Previn
a.. Michael Roll
a.. Moritz Rosenthal
a.. Anton Rubinstein
a.. Artur Rubinstein
a.. Nikolai Rubinstein
a.. Harold Samuel
a.. Andr?s Schiff
a.. Artur Schnabel
a.. Peter Serkin
a.. Rudolf Serkin
a.. Solomon (Cutner)
a.. Wladyslaw Szpilman
a.. Mark Taimanov
a.. Carl Tausig
a.. Sigismund Thalberg
a.. Rosalyn Tureck
a.. Isabella Vengerova
a.. Alexis Weissenberg
a.. Paul Wittgenstein
a.. Maria Yudina
a.. Gary Rimar
Radu Focshaner
2005-02-28 23:31:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by albert landa
Wow! Well done, Radu! I have printed off your list of "Catholic" pianists
as a reference.But why did you exclude Walter Gieseking?
Not in the list I copied ....

As for Greg Presley, he did learn in a catholic school and later at
Juilliard. An I have two wonderful CD recorded by him ... in a church...
gregpresley
2005-03-01 07:59:30 UTC
Permalink
I'm honored that Radu put me on THAT list, instead of the one I really
belong on:

John Jones
Jim Smith
Pete Miller
Ron Ball
Jeff Johnson
Zach Taylor
Pat Kelly
Mike Stevenson

What, you never heard of these people?
It must be a conspiracy.......LOL
Post by Radu Focshaner
Post by albert landa
Wow! Well done, Radu! I have printed off your list of "Catholic" pianists
as a reference.But why did you exclude Walter Gieseking?
Not in the list I copied ....
As for Greg Presley, he did learn in a catholic school and later at
Juilliard. An I have two wonderful CD recorded by him ... in a church...
Tony Elka
2005-03-01 04:13:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by albert landa
Wow! Well done, Radu! I have printed off your list of "Catholic" pianists as
a reference.But why did you exclude Walter Gieseking?
And what happened to Chico Marx?

Tony
Betsy
2005-02-28 23:49:13 UTC
Permalink
Radu, you are joking, yes? There are many Jews on this list!
Post by Radu Focshaner
Post by Tom Shaw
You should know by the way that
Protestants never beat the hell out of children taking piano and that is why
the Catholic piano players are so much better than the Protestant piano
players, at least here in the States.
And Greg Presley is the best proof !
As well as
a.. Charles Alkan
a.. Vladimir Ashkenazy
a.. Emanuel Ax
a.. Victor Babin
a.. Gina Bachauer
a.. Dmitri Bashkirov
a.. Daniel Barenboim
a.. Simon Barere
a.. Lazar Berman
a.. Victor Borge
a.. Alexander Borovsky
a.. Alexander Brailowsky
a.. Yefim Bronfman
a.. Ignaz Bruell
a.. Shura Cherkassky
a.. Harriet Cohen
a.. Bella Davidovich
a.. Misha Dichter
a.. Samuil Feinberg
a.. Vladimir Feltsman
a.. Annie Fischer
a.. Leon Fleisher
a.. Yakov Flier
a.. Claude Frank
a.. Ignaz Friedman
a.. Emil Gilels
a.. Grigory Ginsburg
a.. Leopold Godowsky
a.. Alexander Goldenweiser
a.. Richard Goode
a.. Gary Graffman
a.. Mark Hambourg
a.. Clara Haskil
a.. Myra Hess
a.. Vladimir Horovitz
a.. Eugene Istomin
a.. Byron Janis
a.. Joseph Kalichstein
a.. William Kapell
a.. Julius Katchen
a.. Louis Kentner
a.. Evgeny Kissin
a.. Vladimir Krainev
a.. Lili Kraus
a.. Wanda Landowska
a.. Ruth Laredo
a.. Josef Lh?vinne
a.. Rosina Lh?vinne
a.. Radu Lupu
a.. Hephzibah Menuhin
a.. Benno Moiseiwitsch
a.. Ignaz Moscheles
a.. Murray Perahia
a.. Menahem Pressler
a.. Andr? Previn
a.. Michael Roll
a.. Moritz Rosenthal
a.. Anton Rubinstein
a.. Artur Rubinstein
a.. Nikolai Rubinstein
a.. Harold Samuel
a.. Andr?s Schiff
a.. Artur Schnabel
a.. Peter Serkin
a.. Rudolf Serkin
a.. Solomon (Cutner)
a.. Wladyslaw Szpilman
a.. Mark Taimanov
a.. Carl Tausig
a.. Sigismund Thalberg
a.. Rosalyn Tureck
a.. Isabella Vengerova
a.. Alexis Weissenberg
a.. Paul Wittgenstein
a.. Maria Yudina
a.. Gary Rimar
albert landa
2005-03-01 00:59:40 UTC
Permalink
Dear Betsy,

I think that Radu IS joking! They are ALL Jews, Betsy.


albert landa
Post by Betsy
Radu, you are joking, yes? There are many Jews on this list!
Post by Radu Focshaner
Post by Tom Shaw
You should know by the way that
Protestants never beat the hell out of children taking piano and that is why
the Catholic piano players are so much better than the Protestant piano
players, at least here in the States.
And Greg Presley is the best proof !
As well as
a.. Charles Alkan
a.. Vladimir Ashkenazy
a.. Emanuel Ax
a.. Victor Babin
a.. Gina Bachauer
a.. Dmitri Bashkirov
a.. Daniel Barenboim
a.. Simon Barere
a.. Lazar Berman
a.. Victor Borge
a.. Alexander Borovsky
a.. Alexander Brailowsky
a.. Yefim Bronfman
a.. Ignaz Bruell
a.. Shura Cherkassky
a.. Harriet Cohen
a.. Bella Davidovich
a.. Misha Dichter
a.. Samuil Feinberg
a.. Vladimir Feltsman
a.. Annie Fischer
a.. Leon Fleisher
a.. Yakov Flier
a.. Claude Frank
a.. Ignaz Friedman
a.. Emil Gilels
a.. Grigory Ginsburg
a.. Leopold Godowsky
a.. Alexander Goldenweiser
a.. Richard Goode
a.. Gary Graffman
a.. Mark Hambourg
a.. Clara Haskil
a.. Myra Hess
a.. Vladimir Horovitz
a.. Eugene Istomin
a.. Byron Janis
a.. Joseph Kalichstein
a.. William Kapell
a.. Julius Katchen
a.. Louis Kentner
a.. Evgeny Kissin
a.. Vladimir Krainev
a.. Lili Kraus
a.. Wanda Landowska
a.. Ruth Laredo
a.. Josef Lh?vinne
a.. Rosina Lh?vinne
a.. Radu Lupu
a.. Hephzibah Menuhin
a.. Benno Moiseiwitsch
a.. Ignaz Moscheles
a.. Murray Perahia
a.. Menahem Pressler
a.. Andr? Previn
a.. Michael Roll
a.. Moritz Rosenthal
a.. Anton Rubinstein
a.. Artur Rubinstein
a.. Nikolai Rubinstein
a.. Harold Samuel
a.. Andr?s Schiff
a.. Artur Schnabel
a.. Peter Serkin
a.. Rudolf Serkin
a.. Solomon (Cutner)
a.. Wladyslaw Szpilman
a.. Mark Taimanov
a.. Carl Tausig
a.. Sigismund Thalberg
a.. Rosalyn Tureck
a.. Isabella Vengerova
a.. Alexis Weissenberg
a.. Paul Wittgenstein
a.. Maria Yudina
a.. Gary Rimar
Betsy
2005-03-01 01:35:39 UTC
Permalink
Aha! I knew a lot of them were, but no, I really didn't know they all were!
Wow, what an honor roll.
Post by albert landa
Dear Betsy,
I think that Radu IS joking! They are ALL Jews, Betsy.
albert landa
Post by Betsy
Radu, you are joking, yes? There are many Jews on this list!
Post by Radu Focshaner
Post by Tom Shaw
You should know by the way that
Protestants never beat the hell out of children taking piano and that is why
the Catholic piano players are so much better than the Protestant piano
players, at least here in the States.
And Greg Presley is the best proof !
As well as
a.. Charles Alkan
a.. Vladimir Ashkenazy
a.. Emanuel Ax
a.. Victor Babin
a.. Gina Bachauer
a.. Dmitri Bashkirov
a.. Daniel Barenboim
a.. Simon Barere
a.. Lazar Berman
a.. Victor Borge
a.. Alexander Borovsky
a.. Alexander Brailowsky
a.. Yefim Bronfman
a.. Ignaz Bruell
a.. Shura Cherkassky
a.. Harriet Cohen
a.. Bella Davidovich
a.. Misha Dichter
a.. Samuil Feinberg
a.. Vladimir Feltsman
a.. Annie Fischer
a.. Leon Fleisher
a.. Yakov Flier
a.. Claude Frank
a.. Ignaz Friedman
a.. Emil Gilels
a.. Grigory Ginsburg
a.. Leopold Godowsky
a.. Alexander Goldenweiser
a.. Richard Goode
a.. Gary Graffman
a.. Mark Hambourg
a.. Clara Haskil
a.. Myra Hess
a.. Vladimir Horovitz
a.. Eugene Istomin
a.. Byron Janis
a.. Joseph Kalichstein
a.. William Kapell
a.. Julius Katchen
a.. Louis Kentner
a.. Evgeny Kissin
a.. Vladimir Krainev
a.. Lili Kraus
a.. Wanda Landowska
a.. Ruth Laredo
a.. Josef Lh?vinne
a.. Rosina Lh?vinne
a.. Radu Lupu
a.. Hephzibah Menuhin
a.. Benno Moiseiwitsch
a.. Ignaz Moscheles
a.. Murray Perahia
a.. Menahem Pressler
a.. Andr? Previn
a.. Michael Roll
a.. Moritz Rosenthal
a.. Anton Rubinstein
a.. Artur Rubinstein
a.. Nikolai Rubinstein
a.. Harold Samuel
a.. Andr?s Schiff
a.. Artur Schnabel
a.. Peter Serkin
a.. Rudolf Serkin
a.. Solomon (Cutner)
a.. Wladyslaw Szpilman
a.. Mark Taimanov
a.. Carl Tausig
a.. Sigismund Thalberg
a.. Rosalyn Tureck
a.. Isabella Vengerova
a.. Alexis Weissenberg
a.. Paul Wittgenstein
a.. Maria Yudina
a.. Gary Rimar
Radu Focshaner
2005-03-01 06:17:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Betsy
Aha! I knew a lot of them were, but no, I really didn't know they all
were! Wow, what an honor roll.
Well... the truth is that in fact they were/are not Jews but they pretend to
be so as to be accepted to the Carnegie Hall stage which, as we all know,
is controlled by the Jews. There were all kinds of Gentiles that did this
in order to cash in on the value of being Jewish. However , some pianists,
(Ivo Pogorelich, FouTsong , Lang Lang , Moishe Groiss) , who did that also
changed their names to Gentile ones...i.e. first they pretended to be Jewish
to get into the business and then chose their stage names to avoid detection
as being Jewish.
albert landa
2005-03-01 06:58:15 UTC
Permalink
You mean that NOT ONE of them is a real, genuine, card-carrying, hunky-dory,
fair dinkum Jew.

Cunning little bastards aren't they?!

albert landa
Post by Radu Focshaner
Post by Betsy
Aha! I knew a lot of them were, but no, I really didn't know they all
were! Wow, what an honor roll.
Well... the truth is that in fact they were/are not Jews but they pretend
to be so as to be accepted to the Carnegie Hall stage which, as we all
know, is controlled by the Jews. There were all kinds of Gentiles that
did this in order to cash in on the value of being Jewish. However , some
pianists, (Ivo Pogorelich, FouTsong , Lang Lang , Moishe Groiss) , who did
that also changed their names to Gentile ones...i.e. first they pretended
to be Jewish to get into the business and then chose their stage names to
avoid detection as being Jewish.
Gary Rimar
2005-03-03 04:00:37 UTC
Permalink
A man is in a Catholic hospital after an auto accident. Outside his room is
his wife and 13 (yes, thirteen) children.

A nun comes in and asks "do you have 13 children"?

The man says "yes I do. May I see them"?

The nun says "most certainly. It is good to see a nice Catholic man doing
his duty."

The man says "but sister, I'm Jewish."

The nun gets a disgusted look on her face and snarls "and apparently a sex
maniac too."
albert landa
2005-03-01 02:07:44 UTC
Permalink
Radu,

You neglected to include Oscar Levant , Camille Saint-Saens and Clifford
Curzon.

cheers,

albert landa

PS Liberace???
Post by Radu Focshaner
Post by Tom Shaw
You should know by the way that
Protestants never beat the hell out of children taking piano and that is why
the Catholic piano players are so much better than the Protestant piano
players, at least here in the States.
And Greg Presley is the best proof !
As well as
a.. Charles Alkan
a.. Vladimir Ashkenazy
a.. Emanuel Ax
a.. Victor Babin
a.. Gina Bachauer
a.. Dmitri Bashkirov
a.. Daniel Barenboim
a.. Simon Barere
a.. Lazar Berman
a.. Victor Borge
a.. Alexander Borovsky
a.. Alexander Brailowsky
a.. Yefim Bronfman
a.. Ignaz Bruell
a.. Shura Cherkassky
a.. Harriet Cohen
a.. Bella Davidovich
a.. Misha Dichter
a.. Samuil Feinberg
a.. Vladimir Feltsman
a.. Annie Fischer
a.. Leon Fleisher
a.. Yakov Flier
a.. Claude Frank
a.. Ignaz Friedman
a.. Emil Gilels
a.. Grigory Ginsburg
a.. Leopold Godowsky
a.. Alexander Goldenweiser
a.. Richard Goode
a.. Gary Graffman
a.. Mark Hambourg
a.. Clara Haskil
a.. Myra Hess
a.. Vladimir Horovitz
a.. Eugene Istomin
a.. Byron Janis
a.. Joseph Kalichstein
a.. William Kapell
a.. Julius Katchen
a.. Louis Kentner
a.. Evgeny Kissin
a.. Vladimir Krainev
a.. Lili Kraus
a.. Wanda Landowska
a.. Ruth Laredo
a.. Josef Lh?vinne
a.. Rosina Lh?vinne
a.. Radu Lupu
a.. Hephzibah Menuhin
a.. Benno Moiseiwitsch
a.. Ignaz Moscheles
a.. Murray Perahia
a.. Menahem Pressler
a.. Andr? Previn
a.. Michael Roll
a.. Moritz Rosenthal
a.. Anton Rubinstein
a.. Artur Rubinstein
a.. Nikolai Rubinstein
a.. Harold Samuel
a.. Andr?s Schiff
a.. Artur Schnabel
a.. Peter Serkin
a.. Rudolf Serkin
a.. Solomon (Cutner)
a.. Wladyslaw Szpilman
a.. Mark Taimanov
a.. Carl Tausig
a.. Sigismund Thalberg
a.. Rosalyn Tureck
a.. Isabella Vengerova
a.. Alexis Weissenberg
a.. Paul Wittgenstein
a.. Maria Yudina
a.. Gary Rimar
manitou910
2005-03-01 03:19:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by albert landa
Radu,
You neglected to include Oscar Levant , Camille Saint-Saens and Clifford
Curzon.
Felix Mendelssohn
Ilona Kabos
Adele Marcus
Jacob Krichaf
Mari-Elizabeth Morgen
Marilyn Engle
Anton Kuerti

(IINM Horowitz was only half-Jewish!)








C.
Post by albert landa
cheers,
albert landa
PS Liberace???
Post by Radu Focshaner
Post by Tom Shaw
You should know by the way that
Protestants never beat the hell out of children taking piano and that is
why the Catholic piano players are so much better than the Protestant
piano players, at least here in the States.
And Greg Presley is the best proof !
As well as
a.. Charles Alkan
a.. Vladimir Ashkenazy
a.. Emanuel Ax
a.. Victor Babin
a.. Gina Bachauer
a.. Dmitri Bashkirov
a.. Daniel Barenboim
a.. Simon Barere
a.. Lazar Berman
a.. Victor Borge
a.. Alexander Borovsky
a.. Alexander Brailowsky
a.. Yefim Bronfman
a.. Ignaz Bruell
a.. Shura Cherkassky
a.. Harriet Cohen
a.. Bella Davidovich
a.. Misha Dichter
a.. Samuil Feinberg
a.. Vladimir Feltsman
a.. Annie Fischer
a.. Leon Fleisher
a.. Yakov Flier
a.. Claude Frank
a.. Ignaz Friedman
a.. Emil Gilels
a.. Grigory Ginsburg
a.. Leopold Godowsky
a.. Alexander Goldenweiser
a.. Richard Goode
a.. Gary Graffman
a.. Mark Hambourg
a.. Clara Haskil
a.. Myra Hess
a.. Vladimir Horovitz
a.. Eugene Istomin
a.. Byron Janis
a.. Joseph Kalichstein
a.. William Kapell
a.. Julius Katchen
a.. Louis Kentner
a.. Evgeny Kissin
a.. Vladimir Krainev
a.. Lili Kraus
a.. Wanda Landowska
a.. Ruth Laredo
a.. Josef Lh?vinne
a.. Rosina Lh?vinne
a.. Radu Lupu
a.. Hephzibah Menuhin
a.. Benno Moiseiwitsch
a.. Ignaz Moscheles
a.. Murray Perahia
a.. Menahem Pressler
a.. Andr? Previn
a.. Michael Roll
a.. Moritz Rosenthal
a.. Anton Rubinstein
a.. Artur Rubinstein
a.. Nikolai Rubinstein
a.. Harold Samuel
a.. Andr?s Schiff
a.. Artur Schnabel
a.. Peter Serkin
a.. Rudolf Serkin
a.. Solomon (Cutner)
a.. Wladyslaw Szpilman
a.. Mark Taimanov
a.. Carl Tausig
a.. Sigismund Thalberg
a.. Rosalyn Tureck
a.. Isabella Vengerova
a.. Alexis Weissenberg
a.. Paul Wittgenstein
a.. Maria Yudina
a.. Gary Rimar
albert landa
2005-03-01 05:15:15 UTC
Permalink
And there is also Dave Brubeck, Dick Hyman and George Gershwin.

I believe that Vladimir Ashkenazi is only half Jewish and has "converted" to
Christianity as did Felix Mendelssohn.

albert landa
Post by manitou910
Post by albert landa
Radu,
You neglected to include Oscar Levant , Camille Saint-Saens and Clifford
Curzon.
Felix Mendelssohn
Ilona Kabos
Adele Marcus
Jacob Krichaf
Mari-Elizabeth Morgen
Marilyn Engle
Anton Kuerti
(IINM Horowitz was only half-Jewish!)
C.
Post by albert landa
cheers,
albert landa
PS Liberace???
Post by Radu Focshaner
Post by Tom Shaw
You should know by the way that
Protestants never beat the hell out of children taking piano and that is
why the Catholic piano players are so much better than the Protestant
piano players, at least here in the States.
And Greg Presley is the best proof !
As well as
a.. Charles Alkan
a.. Vladimir Ashkenazy
a.. Emanuel Ax
a.. Victor Babin
a.. Gina Bachauer
a.. Dmitri Bashkirov
a.. Daniel Barenboim
a.. Simon Barere
a.. Lazar Berman
a.. Victor Borge
a.. Alexander Borovsky
a.. Alexander Brailowsky
a.. Yefim Bronfman
a.. Ignaz Bruell
a.. Shura Cherkassky
a.. Harriet Cohen
a.. Bella Davidovich
a.. Misha Dichter
a.. Samuil Feinberg
a.. Vladimir Feltsman
a.. Annie Fischer
a.. Leon Fleisher
a.. Yakov Flier
a.. Claude Frank
a.. Ignaz Friedman
a.. Emil Gilels
a.. Grigory Ginsburg
a.. Leopold Godowsky
a.. Alexander Goldenweiser
a.. Richard Goode
a.. Gary Graffman
a.. Mark Hambourg
a.. Clara Haskil
a.. Myra Hess
a.. Vladimir Horovitz
a.. Eugene Istomin
a.. Byron Janis
a.. Joseph Kalichstein
a.. William Kapell
a.. Julius Katchen
a.. Louis Kentner
a.. Evgeny Kissin
a.. Vladimir Krainev
a.. Lili Kraus
a.. Wanda Landowska
a.. Ruth Laredo
a.. Josef Lh?vinne
a.. Rosina Lh?vinne
a.. Radu Lupu
a.. Hephzibah Menuhin
a.. Benno Moiseiwitsch
a.. Ignaz Moscheles
a.. Murray Perahia
a.. Menahem Pressler
a.. Andr? Previn
a.. Michael Roll
a.. Moritz Rosenthal
a.. Anton Rubinstein
a.. Artur Rubinstein
a.. Nikolai Rubinstein
a.. Harold Samuel
a.. Andr?s Schiff
a.. Artur Schnabel
a.. Peter Serkin
a.. Rudolf Serkin
a.. Solomon (Cutner)
a.. Wladyslaw Szpilman
a.. Mark Taimanov
a.. Carl Tausig
a.. Sigismund Thalberg
a.. Rosalyn Tureck
a.. Isabella Vengerova
a.. Alexis Weissenberg
a.. Paul Wittgenstein
a.. Maria Yudina
a.. Gary Rimar
RM.
2005-03-02 06:34:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by albert landa
You neglected to include Oscar Levant , Camille Saint-Saens and Clifford
Curzon.
Was Saint-Saens Jewish.... With Saint in his name ?????
RM.
2005-03-01 17:11:00 UTC
Permalink
"Radu Focshaner" <***@writeme.com> a �crit dans le message de news:***@individual.net...

All Ashkenaze Jews, most of them actually.

How do you explain that Radu ? Because of the countries they were raised in
or because of their religion ?

(According to me a mixture of both )

Hello BTW,

Regine ( not enough Jewish blood to be talented and taught piano in a
catholic school without being bledi to death by her teacher)
Radu Focshaner
2005-03-02 08:10:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by RM.
All Ashkenaze Jews, most of them actually.
How do you explain that Radu ? Because of the countries they were raised in
or because of their religion ?
Regine ( not enough Jewish blood to be talented and taught piano in a
catholic school without being bledi to death by her teacher)
I think it is a "geographic / cultural issue", not a religion / blood issue.
They were born in Europe / Central Europe . Some Jews (like Mendelssohn)
could afford to give their children a good education. And since the Jews
have been restricted in their occupational trade (I mean they were not
allowed to engage in all the available trades) many "survived" by acquiring
more intellectual professions. In those families , music had , probably, an
important place. But ... don't take my word for it... I'm not an expert in
social / economics topics.... And, BTW, my favorite pianist is Pogorelich
the Croatian .
RM.
2005-03-02 17:27:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Radu Focshaner
I think it is a "geographic / cultural issue", not a religion / blood issue.
This is what I think too. Music was also more important, during these
centuries in these parts of the world than it was elsewhere.

I'm interested about Mendelssohns's conversion to protestantism, because I'm
currently singing his Psaum 42, which he composed when he was in his early
20s.

Our ex Paris Archbishop is also a Jew converted to catholicism, but it
sounds so strange to me that someone can change religion that I'm always
curious !

R***
Alan Jones
2005-03-02 19:19:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Radu Focshaner
Post by Radu Focshaner
I think it is a "geographic / cultural issue", not a religion / blood
issue.
This is what I think too. Music was also more important, during these
centuries in these parts of the world than it was elsewhere.
I'm interested about Mendelssohns's conversion to protestantism, because I'm
currently singing his Psaum 42, which he composed when he was in his early
20s.
Our ex Paris Archbishop is also a Jew converted to catholicism, but it
sounds so strange to me that someone can change religion that I'm always
curious !
The family of the composer Mendelssohn converted to Christianity when he was
about 9 years old, and he was raised as a Protestant. He wrote one Christian
oratorio ("St Paul") and died before finishing another ("Christus"); also
many anthems, extended psalm settings and so on. He pioneered the revival of
Bach's church music through his edition and performance of the St Matthew
Passion.

Alan Jones
Radu Focshaner
2005-03-02 22:36:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by RM.
Our ex Paris Archbishop is also a Jew converted to catholicism, but it
sounds so strange to me that someone can change religion that I'm always
curious !
Cardinal Lustiger , like many other children, had been placed in the care of
Catholic families to escape the Nazis. Their families perished and many kids
converted later to Catholicism. From the Jewish point of view, there is no
escape from Judaism, so a converted Jew remains a Jew.... We had here, in
the Holy Land another famous converted , father Daniel (same reasons to
convert) at Stella Maris in Haifa . But :

Quote from a book review:

Of the thousands of Jews who survived the Holocaust by disguising themselves
as gentiles, Oswald Rufeisen, the subject of In the Lion's Den, may have
been the most resourceful. I first heard of him in the early 1960s, when the
Israeli Supreme Court debated the request of Father Daniel, a Carmelite monk
at the Stella Maris monastery on Mount Carmel in Haifa, to be given Israeli
citizenship on the basis of the Law of Return. If this were granted, Father
Daniel,formerly Oswald Rufeisen,would be identified in his Israeli passport
as a Jew. One of the five judges was in favor of accepting Father Daniel's
claim, but the others turned him down, arguing that "a Jew who changed his
religion cannot be counted as a Jew in the sense and the spirit that the
Knesset (Parliament) meant in the Law of Return and as it is accepted among
our people today."

...
albert landa
2005-02-28 23:31:00 UTC
Permalink
Sorry.But, who is Floyd Cramer?


albert landa
Post by Tom Shaw
Well al, I'll tell you. The Roman Catholic Church is run by a bunch of
crappy popes who are supposed to lay off the nuns. Now that makes the nuns
a little edgy if you know what I mean. Accordingly, and according to the
best principles of Ziggie Freud, they tend to become a little
sado-masochistic with emphasis on the sadism. So when they teach piano or
mathematics they beat the hell out of the students for fun. Now in a
secular world it is the fascists who beat the hell out of every body whereas
in America we try only to beat the hell out of terrorists. Therefore in
American we seldom beat the hell out of children taking piano lessons
anymore in spite of the Catholic Church. You should know by the way that
Protestants never beat the hell out of children taking piano and that is why
the Catholic piano players are so much better than the Protestant piano
players, at least here in the States.
So you have to make a choice: J.S.Bach or Floyd Cramer.
TS
Post by albert landa
I have a little 8 year old pupil who is brought to her lesson each week by
her mother. A charming girl but not particularly gifted or physically well
adapted to learning a keyboard instrument.She always seemed to enjoy the
lessons and used to skip up the steps to the studio with a big smile on
her
Post by albert landa
face.Over the last month I have noticed a change.She seems to have lost a
lot of confidence, is very tentative and doesn't smile.
Her mother supervises her practice sessions at home and it appears has
started screaming at her at the least sign of a slip or error.It also
appears that the mother learnt piano as a child and was taught by a
Catholic
Post by albert landa
nun who used to hit her over the knuckles with a ruler whenever she made
an
Post by albert landa
error or slip.The mother is STILL traumatised by these memories and seems
to
Post by albert landa
be unaware that she is starting to replicate this behaviour with her
little
Post by albert landa
girl.
In my long teaching career I must say that this is not the first time I
have
Post by albert landa
come across this sort of thing.I have had quite a few mature-age students
who are returning to the piano after a long gap which was often the result
of giving up the piano because this sort of treatment by their
catholic-nun
Post by albert landa
teachers caused them to loathe the piano and music generally.One pupil
told
Post by albert landa
me that as well as screaming at her and hitting her over the knuckles the
nun strongly ( and erroneously) believed that it was important to hold the
wrists very high.To this end she used to hold a very sharp pencil under
the
Post by albert landa
wrist of the girl and if the wrist dropped too low.......well, you know.It
was also difficult and time-consuming to get them to relax and ultimately
enjoy their new contact with the piano.
It must be said that I have come across the occasional excellent
nun-teacher
Post by albert landa
who is loved by her students and does good work, but this is relatively
rare
Post by albert landa
and is far outweighed by the negative phenomenon described above.
What is it about the Catholic church that produces this sort of abusive
behaviour and destroys the love for music and the piano of so many
innocent
Post by albert landa
children?
albert landa
Tom Shaw
2005-03-01 16:24:31 UTC
Permalink
He was the late country music piano player who invented a very distinctive
style. I cannot characterize it in words but he used it on a bunch of
records. I assume he was a Protestant since most country musicians used to
be from the South which is, as you know, a hot bed of Protestantism. But I
just looked him up on Google and he was born in Shreveport LA so it is
possible he was a Catholic after all.
TS
Post by albert landa
Sorry.But, who is Floyd Cramer?
albert landa
Post by Tom Shaw
Well al, I'll tell you. The Roman Catholic Church is run by a bunch of
crappy popes who are supposed to lay off the nuns. Now that makes the nuns
a little edgy if you know what I mean. Accordingly, and according to the
best principles of Ziggie Freud, they tend to become a little
sado-masochistic with emphasis on the sadism. So when they teach piano or
mathematics they beat the hell out of the students for fun. Now in a
secular world it is the fascists who beat the hell out of every body whereas
in America we try only to beat the hell out of terrorists. Therefore in
American we seldom beat the hell out of children taking piano lessons
anymore in spite of the Catholic Church. You should know by the way that
Protestants never beat the hell out of children taking piano and that is why
the Catholic piano players are so much better than the Protestant piano
players, at least here in the States.
So you have to make a choice: J.S.Bach or Floyd Cramer.
TS
Post by albert landa
I have a little 8 year old pupil who is brought to her lesson each week by
her mother. A charming girl but not particularly gifted or physically well
adapted to learning a keyboard instrument.She always seemed to enjoy the
lessons and used to skip up the steps to the studio with a big smile on
her
Post by albert landa
face.Over the last month I have noticed a change.She seems to have lost a
lot of confidence, is very tentative and doesn't smile.
Her mother supervises her practice sessions at home and it appears has
started screaming at her at the least sign of a slip or error.It also
appears that the mother learnt piano as a child and was taught by a
Catholic
Post by albert landa
nun who used to hit her over the knuckles with a ruler whenever she made
an
Post by albert landa
error or slip.The mother is STILL traumatised by these memories and seems
to
Post by albert landa
be unaware that she is starting to replicate this behaviour with her
little
Post by albert landa
girl.
In my long teaching career I must say that this is not the first time I
have
Post by albert landa
come across this sort of thing.I have had quite a few mature-age students
who are returning to the piano after a long gap which was often the result
of giving up the piano because this sort of treatment by their
catholic-nun
Post by albert landa
teachers caused them to loathe the piano and music generally.One pupil
told
Post by albert landa
me that as well as screaming at her and hitting her over the knuckles the
nun strongly ( and erroneously) believed that it was important to hold the
wrists very high.To this end she used to hold a very sharp pencil under
the
Post by albert landa
wrist of the girl and if the wrist dropped too low.......well, you know.It
was also difficult and time-consuming to get them to relax and ultimately
enjoy their new contact with the piano.
It must be said that I have come across the occasional excellent
nun-teacher
Post by albert landa
who is loved by her students and does good work, but this is relatively
rare
Post by albert landa
and is far outweighed by the negative phenomenon described above.
What is it about the Catholic church that produces this sort of abusive
behaviour and destroys the love for music and the piano of so many
innocent
Post by albert landa
children?
albert landa
gregpresley
2005-03-01 08:29:05 UTC
Permalink
Well, I was a Catholic grade-school kid, although my piano teacher was not a
nun. (I did study organ music with a nun however).
She was not in the habit of rapping my knuckles for mistakes, thank God.
I have to say though, that in that age of baby boomers and crowded Catholic
schools, there were some confused and confusing social/theological issues
floating around. For example, on one report card in the 3rd or 5th grade, I
received all A's except for one B. My parents quizzed me on that, because
they knew that school work was very easy for me. I said, "I don't know". So
at the student-teacher conference, my mom asked the teacher (a nun), why I
had gotten a B in that subject. Her answer was, "Oh, he deserved an A, but
no student should get all A's - that would make him think that he is
special, or that perfection is attainable". Any kind of win at a
competition, whether in sports or music was chalked up to God's assistance,
as though hard work was secondary to that. The emphasis on humility and
non-materialism in the Catholic church of that era did not support the
building of tough egos ready to announce to the world, "I am a genius" -
which, to a certain extent, is a necessary psychological stance for the
budding soloist (hether accurate or not) It takes all of that
and more to withstand a world crowded with would-be artists and hostile to
new arrivals.
I thought maybe my experiences were unique, but discussions I have had since
with other Catholic-school kids who ended up in the performing arts revealed
a similar pattern.
I'm grateful that I'm not materialistic. That makes life as a
professional but not wealthy musician much more supportable. But I regret
that there might have been people who could have attained more in their
fields if only they'd been "allowed" to excel and had been lauded for their
achievements. It is no mystery that the sciences moved out of Catholic
countries and into Protestant ones after Galileo was informed that the
Church and God would punish him for his arrogance in thinking that he had a
special insight into the workings of the solar system.
Mike Williams
2005-03-01 09:03:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by gregpresley
Well, I was a Catholic grade-school kid, although my piano teacher was not a
nun. (I did study organ music with a nun however).
I was the converse: living in small rural towns, the local convent was
the only place to get any sort of musical training. Unfortunately, the
devil's due was that the nuns were extremely free with the cane, or as I
found, the piano-lid (on my 10yr old fingers). I suspect my
sight-reading abilities stemmed in part from not being allowed to look
at the keyboard for most of my time with her. Even decades later, I
still find that conditioning hard to shake. It's a sad environment when
you have a student desperate to learn, but the only way is through
abusive teachers.
albert landa
2005-03-01 09:30:02 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Greg for a truly excellent post.I'm going to print it off to re-read
because there was much in it to admire and reflect upon.

Apart from the emphasis on humility and self-abnegation were you,as well,
handicapped by feelings of guilt? Guilt about success etc.

I must say I totally approve of the emphasis on non-materialism.Being a
professional in the classical music scene and gross materialism don't seem
to go together unless, I suppose, you are up there with the really big
names.I concur entirely with your attitude to this.

regards,

albert landa
Post by gregpresley
Well, I was a Catholic grade-school kid, although my piano teacher was not a
nun. (I did study organ music with a nun however).
She was not in the habit of rapping my knuckles for mistakes, thank God.
I have to say though, that in that age of baby boomers and crowded Catholic
schools, there were some confused and confusing social/theological issues
floating around. For example, on one report card in the 3rd or 5th grade, I
received all A's except for one B. My parents quizzed me on that, because
they knew that school work was very easy for me. I said, "I don't know". So
at the student-teacher conference, my mom asked the teacher (a nun), why I
had gotten a B in that subject. Her answer was, "Oh, he deserved an A, but
no student should get all A's - that would make him think that he is
special, or that perfection is attainable". Any kind of win at a
competition, whether in sports or music was chalked up to God's assistance,
as though hard work was secondary to that. The emphasis on humility and
non-materialism in the Catholic church of that era did not support the
building of tough egos ready to announce to the world, "I am a genius" -
which, to a certain extent, is a necessary psychological stance for the
budding soloist (hether accurate or not) It takes all of that
and more to withstand a world crowded with would-be artists and hostile to
new arrivals.
I thought maybe my experiences were unique, but discussions I have had since
with other Catholic-school kids who ended up in the performing arts revealed
a similar pattern.
I'm grateful that I'm not materialistic. That makes life as a
professional but not wealthy musician much more supportable. But I regret
that there might have been people who could have attained more in their
fields if only they'd been "allowed" to excel and had been lauded for their
achievements. It is no mystery that the sciences moved out of Catholic
countries and into Protestant ones after Galileo was informed that the
Church and God would punish him for his arrogance in thinking that he had a
special insight into the workings of the solar system.
Dr Freud
2005-03-02 02:53:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by albert landa
I have a little 8 year old pupil who is brought to her lesson each week by
her mother. A charming girl but not particularly gifted or physically well
adapted to learning a keyboard instrument.She always seemed to enjoy the
lessons and used to skip up the steps to the studio with a big smile on her
face.Over the last month I have noticed a change.She seems to have lost a
lot of confidence, is very tentative and doesn't smile.
Her mother supervises her practice sessions at home and it appears has
started screaming at her at the least sign of a slip or error.It also
appears that the mother learnt piano as a child and was taught by a Catholic
nun who used to hit her over the knuckles with a ruler whenever she made an
error or slip.The mother is STILL traumatised by these memories and seems to
be unaware that she is starting to replicate this behaviour with her little
girl.
In my long teaching career I must say that this is not the first time I have
come across this sort of thing.I have had quite a few mature-age students
who are returning to the piano after a long gap which was often the result
of giving up the piano because this sort of treatment by their catholic-nun
teachers caused them to loathe the piano and music generally.One pupil told
me that as well as screaming at her and hitting her over the knuckles the
nun strongly ( and erroneously) believed that it was important to hold the
wrists very high.To this end she used to hold a very sharp pencil under the
wrist of the girl and if the wrist dropped too low.......well, you know.It
was also difficult and time-consuming to get them to relax and ultimately
enjoy their new contact with the piano.
It must be said that I have come across the occasional excellent nun-teacher
who is loved by her students and does good work, but this is relatively rare
and is far outweighed by the negative phenomenon described above.
What is it about the Catholic church that produces this sort of abusive
behaviour and destroys the love for music and the piano of so many innocent
children?
Medical and psychiatric studies have shown that sexually repressed
nuns engage in this behavior because they suffer from neurosis and
psychosis due to suppression of the normal human libido.
Previously-virgin nuns who have left the convent to marry and have
children have shown remarkable improvement in these symptoms, which
demonstrates that the environment of abstinence and sacrifice and
self-flagelation as well as living together with other repressed
virgin females produces this type of dementia.

In other words, all they need is a good lay.
Sparky
2005-03-02 03:02:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr Freud
Medical and psychiatric studies have shown that sexually repressed
nuns engage in this behavior because they suffer from neurosis and
psychosis due to suppression of the normal human libido.
Hmm. Nuns. Ain't got none. Don't want none. Never will get none.
Post by Dr Freud
Previously-virgin nuns who have left the convent to marry and have
children have shown remarkable improvement in these symptoms, which
demonstrates that the environment of abstinence and sacrifice and
self-flagelation as well as living together with other repressed
virgin females produces this type of dementia.
In other words, all they need is a good lay.
Who in their right mind would want to make love to some dried up old
hag with psychological problems?
albert landa
2005-03-02 03:35:37 UTC
Permalink
I'm certainly not an expert in this area but I have heard that it's a pretty
standard sexual fantasy That is, the violent rape of a
virginal,sexually-repressed, but secretly wildly libidinous nun.

albert landa
Post by Sparky
Post by Dr Freud
Medical and psychiatric studies have shown that sexually repressed
nuns engage in this behavior because they suffer from neurosis and
psychosis due to suppression of the normal human libido.
Hmm. Nuns. Ain't got none. Don't want none. Never will get none.
Post by Dr Freud
Previously-virgin nuns who have left the convent to marry and have
children have shown remarkable improvement in these symptoms, which
demonstrates that the environment of abstinence and sacrifice and
self-flagelation as well as living together with other repressed
virgin females produces this type of dementia.
In other words, all they need is a good lay.
Who in their right mind would want to make love to some dried up old
hag with psychological problems?
christian
2005-03-02 04:32:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sparky
Post by Dr Freud
Medical and psychiatric studies have shown that sexually repressed
nuns engage in this behavior because they suffer from neurosis and
psychosis due to suppression of the normal human libido.
Hmm. Nuns. Ain't got none. Don't want none. Never will get none.
Post by Dr Freud
Previously-virgin nuns who have left the convent to marry and have
children have shown remarkable improvement in these symptoms, which
demonstrates that the environment of abstinence and sacrifice and
self-flagelation as well as living together with other repressed
virgin females produces this type of dementia.
In other words, all they need is a good lay.
Who in their right mind would want to make love to some dried up old
hag with psychological problems?
What makes you think they would want to make love to YOU??
TDP
2005-03-02 03:03:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr Freud
In other words, all they need is a good lay.
Nice try but, uh uh!
Vic Sagerquist
2005-03-02 03:51:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr Freud
Post by albert landa
I have a little 8 year old pupil who is brought to her lesson each
week by her mother. A charming girl but not particularly gifted or
physically well adapted to learning a keyboard instrument.She always
seemed to enjoy the lessons and used to skip up the steps to the
studio with a big smile on her face.Over the last month I have noticed
a change.She seems to have lost a lot of confidence, is very tentative
and doesn't smile.
Her mother supervises her practice sessions at home and it appears has
started screaming at her at the least sign of a slip or error.It also
appears that the mother learnt piano as a child and was taught by a
Catholic nun who used to hit her over the knuckles with a ruler
whenever she made an error or slip.The mother is STILL traumatised by
these memories and seems to be unaware that she is starting to
replicate this behaviour with her little girl.
In my long teaching career I must say that this is not the first time
I have come across this sort of thing.I have had quite a few
mature-age students who are returning to the piano after a long gap
which was often the result of giving up the piano because this sort
of treatment by their catholic-nun teachers caused them to loathe the
piano and music generally.One pupil told me that as well as screaming
at her and hitting her over the knuckles the nun strongly ( and
erroneously) believed that it was important to hold the wrists very
high.To this end she used to hold a very sharp pencil under the wrist
of the girl and if the wrist dropped too low.......well, you know.It
was also difficult and time-consuming to get them to relax and
ultimately enjoy their new contact with the piano.
It must be said that I have come across the occasional excellent
nun-teacher who is loved by her students and does good work, but this
is relatively rare and is far outweighed by the negative phenomenon
described above.
What is it about the Catholic church that produces this sort of
abusive behaviour and destroys the love for music and the piano of so
many innocent children?
Medical and psychiatric studies have shown that sexually repressed
nuns engage in this behavior because they suffer from neurosis and
psychosis due to suppression of the normal human libido.
Previously-virgin nuns who have left the convent to marry and have
children have shown remarkable improvement in these symptoms, which
demonstrates that the environment of abstinence and sacrifice and
self-flagelation as well as living together with other repressed
virgin females produces this type of dementia.
In other words, all they need is a good lay.
I'm not sure what causes this, but it is not exclusively Catholic. My
father took piano lessons, and his father used to do the same thing to
him - corporal punishment for missing a note. I never met my
grandfather, he died of a brain tumor when my dad was 12. My father was
a very withdrawn individual with pent-up frustrations and a fierce
temper, which he learned not to apply to other humans. He was an
atheist, but never proclaimed it - he just didn't do church. I don't
believe his atheism was related to his relationship with his dad. He
entered the US Army a JW and came home an atheist. I don't know what my
grandfather's religious convictions were. Since my roots are
Scandinavian, I'd have to assume Lutheran.

I have to agree with the sexual connotation, though. Look at what
abstinence does to the Catholic Clergy....
--
Vic Sagerquist
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department

Plonked by Jason Gastrich for all eternity...
______________

As you were, I was. As I am, you will be.
--- Hunter S. Thompson
christian
2005-03-02 04:28:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr Freud
Post by albert landa
I have a little 8 year old pupil who is brought to her lesson each week by
her mother. A charming girl but not particularly gifted or physically well
adapted to learning a keyboard instrument.She always seemed to enjoy the
lessons and used to skip up the steps to the studio with a big smile on her
face.Over the last month I have noticed a change.She seems to have lost a
lot of confidence, is very tentative and doesn't smile.
Her mother supervises her practice sessions at home and it appears has
started screaming at her at the least sign of a slip or error.It also
appears that the mother learnt piano as a child and was taught by a Catholic
nun who used to hit her over the knuckles with a ruler whenever she made an
error or slip.The mother is STILL traumatised by these memories and seems to
be unaware that she is starting to replicate this behaviour with her little
girl.
In my long teaching career I must say that this is not the first time I have
come across this sort of thing.I have had quite a few mature-age students
who are returning to the piano after a long gap which was often the result
of giving up the piano because this sort of treatment by their catholic-nun
teachers caused them to loathe the piano and music generally.One pupil told
me that as well as screaming at her and hitting her over the knuckles the
nun strongly ( and erroneously) believed that it was important to hold the
wrists very high.To this end she used to hold a very sharp pencil under the
wrist of the girl and if the wrist dropped too low.......well, you know.It
was also difficult and time-consuming to get them to relax and ultimately
enjoy their new contact with the piano.
It must be said that I have come across the occasional excellent nun-teacher
who is loved by her students and does good work, but this is relatively rare
and is far outweighed by the negative phenomenon described above.
What is it about the Catholic church that produces this sort of abusive
behaviour and destroys the love for music and the piano of so many innocent
children?
Medical and psychiatric studies have shown that sexually repressed
nuns engage in this behavior because they suffer from neurosis and
psychosis due to suppression of the normal human libido.
Previously-virgin nuns who have left the convent to marry and have
children have shown remarkable improvement in these symptoms, which
demonstrates that the environment of abstinence and sacrifice and
self-flagelation as well as living together with other repressed
virgin females produces this type of dementia.
In other words, all they need is a good lay.
You people are insane. If it weren't for the Catholic Church millions
of people on earth would have never even received an education. Or a
hot meal. Or medical care.

At least when the Church was in charge we didn't have the cesspool
that is society today. Nothing but promiscuity, pornography,
abortion, gay marriage.

You should thank those wonderful nuns for rapping your knuckles with
their rulers. You can be sure there were ZERO abortions back then,
none of this gay lifestyle nonsense, and people were honest, decent,
and behaved in a moral way.

Bring back the nuns and the Catholic Church and let them flush out all
the raw sewage out of our schools and our society. Especially
abortion, which is the biggest evil of all, because it involves
killing other human beings. It's the biggest holocaust in the world.

God Bless
Vic Sagerquist
2005-03-02 04:51:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by christian
You people are insane. If it weren't for the Catholic Church millions
of people on earth would have never even received an education. Or a
hot meal. Or medical care.
Or a good pre-teen fucking. Up the ass if you were lucky.
Post by christian
At least when the Church was in charge we didn't have the cesspool
that is society today. Nothing but promiscuity, pornography,
abortion, gay marriage.
No, we had witch burnings, torture, the Dark Ages, and the Spanish
Inquisition. Much better, don't you think?
Post by christian
You should thank those wonderful nuns for rapping your knuckles with
their rulers. You can be sure there were ZERO abortions back then,
none of this gay lifestyle nonsense, and people were honest, decent,
and behaved in a moral way.
Yup. And if you didn't, you could look forward to being hung by your
wrists on a concrete wall until you die.
Post by christian
Bring back the nuns and the Catholic Church and let them flush out all
the raw sewage out of our schools and our society. Especially
abortion, which is the biggest evil of all, because it involves
killing other human beings. It's the biggest holocaust in the world.
God Bless
This is a parody, right?
--
Vic Sagerquist
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department

Plonked by Jason Gastrich for all eternity...
______________

As you were, I was. As I am, you will be.
--- Hunter S. Thompson
Tony Elka
2005-03-02 04:47:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by christian
At least when the Church was in charge we didn't have the cesspool
that is society today. Nothing but promiscuity, pornography,
abortion, gay marriage.
Don't forget all those people they burned at the stake. If you think
that's OK, but pornography is bad, I hate to think what you jerk off to.

Tony
Chris Thompson
2005-03-02 05:19:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by christian
Post by Dr Freud
Post by albert landa
I have a little 8 year old pupil who is brought to her lesson each
week by her mother. A charming girl but not particularly gifted or
physically well adapted to learning a keyboard instrument.She always
seemed to enjoy the lessons and used to skip up the steps to the
studio with a big smile on her face.Over the last month I have
noticed a change.She seems to have lost a lot of confidence, is very
tentative and doesn't smile.
Her mother supervises her practice sessions at home and it appears
has started screaming at her at the least sign of a slip or error.It
also appears that the mother learnt piano as a child and was taught
by a Catholic nun who used to hit her over the knuckles with a ruler
whenever she made an error or slip.The mother is STILL traumatised by
these memories and seems to be unaware that she is starting to
replicate this behaviour with her little girl.
In my long teaching career I must say that this is not the first time
I have come across this sort of thing.I have had quite a few
mature-age students who are returning to the piano after a long gap
which was often the result of giving up the piano because this sort
of treatment by their catholic-nun teachers caused them to loathe the
piano and music generally.One pupil told me that as well as screaming
at her and hitting her over the knuckles the nun strongly ( and
erroneously) believed that it was important to hold the wrists very
high.To this end she used to hold a very sharp pencil under the wrist
of the girl and if the wrist dropped too low.......well, you know.It
was also difficult and time-consuming to get them to relax and
ultimately enjoy their new contact with the piano.
It must be said that I have come across the occasional excellent
nun-teacher who is loved by her students and does good work, but this
is relatively rare and is far outweighed by the negative phenomenon
described above.
What is it about the Catholic church that produces this sort of
abusive behaviour and destroys the love for music and the piano of so
many innocent children?
Medical and psychiatric studies have shown that sexually repressed
nuns engage in this behavior because they suffer from neurosis and
psychosis due to suppression of the normal human libido.
Previously-virgin nuns who have left the convent to marry and have
children have shown remarkable improvement in these symptoms, which
demonstrates that the environment of abstinence and sacrifice and
self-flagelation as well as living together with other repressed
virgin females produces this type of dementia.
In other words, all they need is a good lay.
You people are insane. If it weren't for the Catholic Church millions
of people on earth would have never even received an education. Or a
hot meal. Or medical care.
At least when the Church was in charge we didn't have the cesspool
that is society today. Nothing but promiscuity, pornography,
abortion, gay marriage.
You should thank those wonderful nuns for rapping your knuckles with
their rulers. You can be sure there were ZERO abortions back then,
none of this gay lifestyle nonsense, and people were honest, decent,
and behaved in a moral way.
Bring back the nuns and the Catholic Church and let them flush out all
the raw sewage out of our schools and our society. Especially
abortion, which is the biggest evil of all, because it involves
killing other human beings. It's the biggest holocaust in the world.
God Bless
Woohoo! If this was talk.origins (where I usually hang out) I would hand
this a 9.6 on the Loki-O-meter.
Attila
2005-03-02 13:35:11 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 23:28:37 -0500, christian <***@the.love.of.god> in
alt.abortion with message-id
Post by christian
You people are insane. If it weren't for the Catholic Church millions
of people on earth would have never even received an education.
Including indoctrination and brain washing.
Post by christian
Or a
hot meal. Or medical care.
Only if that medical care is in line with the church.
Post by christian
At least when the Church was in charge we didn't have the cesspool
that is society today. Nothing but promiscuity, pornography,
abortion, gay marriage.
Just witch burnings, and persecution of anyone who did not support the
church in every way.
Post by christian
You should thank those wonderful nuns for rapping your knuckles with
their rulers. You can be sure there were ZERO abortions back then,
Sorry. There have been abortions for as far back as history goes.
Post by christian
none of this gay lifestyle nonsense, and people were honest, decent,
and behaved in a moral way.
Almost everybody who refers to "moral"
means "what I think that you should do".
Post by christian
Bring back the nuns and the Catholic Church and let them flush out all
the raw sewage out of our schools and our society.
How about those of us who want nothing to do with your church or the
life it demands?
Post by christian
Especially
abortion, which is the biggest evil of all, because it involves
killing other human beings.
No, it doesn't. And what gives you the right to demand others live
according to your opinions?
Post by christian
It's the biggest holocaust in the world.
Nope.
Post by christian
God Bless
Which god? Prove it exists.
Beach Runner
2005-03-02 18:25:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by christian
Post by Dr Freud
Post by albert landa
I have a little 8 year old pupil who is brought to her lesson each week by
her mother. A charming girl but not particularly gifted or physically well
adapted to learning a keyboard instrument.She always seemed to enjoy the
lessons and used to skip up the steps to the studio with a big smile on her
face.Over the last month I have noticed a change.She seems to have lost a
lot of confidence, is very tentative and doesn't smile.
Her mother supervises her practice sessions at home and it appears has
started screaming at her at the least sign of a slip or error.It also
appears that the mother learnt piano as a child and was taught by a Catholic
nun who used to hit her over the knuckles with a ruler whenever she made an
error or slip.The mother is STILL traumatised by these memories and seems to
be unaware that she is starting to replicate this behaviour with her little
girl.
In my long teaching career I must say that this is not the first time I have
come across this sort of thing.I have had quite a few mature-age students
who are returning to the piano after a long gap which was often the result
of giving up the piano because this sort of treatment by their catholic-nun
teachers caused them to loathe the piano and music generally.One pupil told
me that as well as screaming at her and hitting her over the knuckles the
nun strongly ( and erroneously) believed that it was important to hold the
wrists very high.To this end she used to hold a very sharp pencil under the
wrist of the girl and if the wrist dropped too low.......well, you know.It
was also difficult and time-consuming to get them to relax and ultimately
enjoy their new contact with the piano.
It must be said that I have come across the occasional excellent nun-teacher
who is loved by her students and does good work, but this is relatively rare
and is far outweighed by the negative phenomenon described above.
What is it about the Catholic church that produces this sort of abusive
behaviour and destroys the love for music and the piano of so many innocent
children?
Medical and psychiatric studies have shown that sexually repressed
nuns engage in this behavior because they suffer from neurosis and
psychosis due to suppression of the normal human libido.
Previously-virgin nuns who have left the convent to marry and have
children have shown remarkable improvement in these symptoms, which
demonstrates that the environment of abstinence and sacrifice and
self-flagelation as well as living together with other repressed
virgin females produces this type of dementia.
In other words, all they need is a good lay.
You people are insane. If it weren't for the Catholic Church millions
of people on earth would have never even received an education. Or a
hot meal. Or medical care.
At least when the Church was in charge we didn't have the cesspool
that is society today. Nothing but promiscuity, pornography,
abortion, gay marriage.
You should thank those wonderful nuns for rapping your knuckles with
their rulers. You can be sure there were ZERO abortions back then,
none of this gay lifestyle nonsense, and people were honest, decent,
and behaved in a moral way.
Bring back the nuns and the Catholic Church and let them flush out all
the raw sewage out of our schools and our society. Especially
abortion, which is the biggest evil of all, because it involves
killing other human beings. It's the biggest holocaust in the world.
God Bless
I seem to recall events like the Crusades, which murdered a 1/3rd of the
Jews of Europe on the way over, the Spanish Inquisition, Pogroms, Witch
burning, Galilleo recanting, other great thinkers being tortured and
killed, something called the dark ages.

Now, there were also a lot of wonderful Christian people who tried to do
as much good as possible.
bam
2005-03-02 21:15:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Beach Runner
I seem to recall events like the Crusades, which murdered a 1/3rd of the
Jews of Europe on the way over,
Then you know nothing about the Crusades.
Post by Beach Runner
the Spanish Inquisition,
of which you know less....
Post by Beach Runner
Pogroms,
of which you know nothing...
Post by Beach Runner
Witch burning, Galilleo recanting, other great thinkers being tortured and
killed, something called the dark ages.
You've never read a thing about any of this.

BAM
john
2005-03-02 22:44:52 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:15:09 -0500, "bam"
Post by bam
Post by Beach Runner
I seem to recall events like the Crusades, which murdered a 1/3rd of the
Jews of Europe on the way over,
Then you know nothing about the Crusades.
Post by Beach Runner
the Spanish Inquisition,
of which you know less....
Post by Beach Runner
Pogroms,
of which you know nothing...
Post by Beach Runner
Witch burning, Galilleo recanting, other great thinkers being tortured and
killed, something called the dark ages.
You've never read a thing about any of this.
BAM
Are you trying to say the events didn't happen?

Do you recalll them differently?

How about sharing your opinion of these events?
bam
2005-03-03 01:46:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by john
On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:15:09 -0500, "bam"
Post by bam
Post by Beach Runner
I seem to recall events like the Crusades, which murdered a 1/3rd of the
Jews of Europe on the way over,
Then you know nothing about the Crusades.
Post by Beach Runner
the Spanish Inquisition,
of which you know less....
Post by Beach Runner
Pogroms,
of which you know nothing...
Post by Beach Runner
Witch burning, Galilleo recanting, other great thinkers being tortured and
killed, something called the dark ages.
You've never read a thing about any of this.
BAM
Are you trying to say the events didn't happen?
Not the way the anti-Catholics like to paint it.
Post by john
Do you recalll them differently?
I don't recall any of it. I'm not quite that old.
Post by john
How about sharing your opinion of these events?
No. Some people don't deserve the truth.

BAM
BOB
2005-03-03 01:56:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by bam
Post by john
On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:15:09 -0500, "bam"
Post by bam
Post by Beach Runner
I seem to recall events like the Crusades, which murdered a 1/3rd of
the Jews of Europe on the way over,
Then you know nothing about the Crusades.
Post by Beach Runner
the Spanish Inquisition,
of which you know less....
Post by Beach Runner
Pogroms,
of which you know nothing...
Post by Beach Runner
Witch burning, Galilleo recanting, other great thinkers being
tortured and killed, something called the dark ages.
You've never read a thing about any of this.
BAM
Are you trying to say the events didn't happen?
Not the way the anti-Catholics like to paint it.
Then perhaps you could enlighten us on how *you* paint it?
Post by bam
Post by john
Do you recalll them differently?
I don't recall any of it. I'm not quite that old.
Didn't you ever learn about historical events or can't you read?
Post by bam
Post by john
How about sharing your opinion of these events?
No. Some people don't deserve the truth.
Speaking from personal experience?
Post by bam
BAM
Raj V
2005-03-08 19:20:29 UTC
Permalink
Bambi wrote:
SNIP
Post by bam
No. Some people don't deserve the truth.
and
Post by bam
I only fight worthy opponents. You're way out of your league.
SNIP

Geeze fellows,

Never argue with an idiot.....they bring you down to their level and then
beat you with experience. We can all see what league bambi is in.

Raj V
bam
2005-03-08 19:29:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raj V
SNIP
Post by bam
No. Some people don't deserve the truth.
and
Post by bam
I only fight worthy opponents. You're way out of your league.
SNIP
Geeze fellows,
Never argue with an idiot.....they bring you down to their level and then
beat you with experience. We can all see what league bambi is in.
Raj V
Ahhh..conjuring up the mobs like a demagogue.

BAM
john
2005-03-03 03:15:31 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 20:46:16 -0500, "bam"
Post by bam
Post by john
On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:15:09 -0500, "bam"
Post by bam
Post by Beach Runner
I seem to recall events like the Crusades, which murdered a 1/3rd of the
Jews of Europe on the way over,
Then you know nothing about the Crusades.
Post by Beach Runner
the Spanish Inquisition,
of which you know less....
Post by Beach Runner
Pogroms,
of which you know nothing...
Post by Beach Runner
Witch burning, Galilleo recanting, other great thinkers being tortured and
killed, something called the dark ages.
You've never read a thing about any of this.
BAM
Are you trying to say the events didn't happen?
Not the way the anti-Catholics like to paint it.
Post by john
Do you recalll them differently?
I don't recall any of it. I'm not quite that old.
Post by john
How about sharing your opinion of these events?
No. Some people don't deserve the truth.
BAM
You are so full of shit.

You DESERVE the truth.
Tony Elka
2005-03-03 03:45:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by bam
No. Some people don't deserve the truth.
In other words, you have no answer.

We accept your surrender.

Tony
bam
2005-03-03 14:05:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Elka
Post by bam
No. Some people don't deserve the truth.
In other words, you have no answer.
We accept your surrender.
I only fight worthy opponents. You're way out of your league.

BAM
Tony Elka
2005-03-03 16:36:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by bam
Post by Tony Elka
Post by bam
No. Some people don't deserve the truth.
In other words, you have no answer.
We accept your surrender.
I only fight worthy opponents. You're way out of your league.
BAM
Another sign of weak intellect, claiming a victory you haven't won.

Tony
bam
2005-03-04 00:26:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Elka
Post by bam
Post by Tony Elka
Post by bam
No. Some people don't deserve the truth.
In other words, you have no answer.
We accept your surrender.
I only fight worthy opponents. You're way out of your league.
BAM
Another sign of weak intellect, claiming a victory you haven't won.
The weak intellect is your own. I claimed no such victory.

BAM
Tony Elka
2005-03-04 02:30:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by bam
Post by Tony Elka
Another sign of weak intellect, claiming a victory you haven't won.
The weak intellect is your own. I claimed no such victory.
BAM
You stated that we were unworthy as opponents. You claimed to be out of
our league. You would have us believe that you possess a truth that we
do not deserve.

You have substantiated nothing while making these claims. You have
proven nothing, and you have convinced nobody.

Your postings are devoid of content, apart from arrogance.

Tony
Hung N
2005-03-22 18:49:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by bam
Post by Tony Elka
Post by bam
Post by Tony Elka
Post by bam
No. Some people don't deserve the truth.
In other words, you have no answer.
We accept your surrender.
I only fight worthy opponents. You're way out of your league.
BAM
Another sign of weak intellect, claiming a victory you haven't won.
The weak intellect is your own. I claimed no such victory.
BAM
And the winner is.... *plonk* Killfile!

What an arrogant idiot, as the posts plainly show. All you who feel
similarly about this childish asshole BAM can easily proclaim instant
victory by banning him from your newsreader for all posterity. Exercise your
brain - learn to use your Killfile. Don't feed the damn trolls; they are
intransigent by nature.

Save your strength and intellect for more worthy causes.

Robert Steinberg
2005-03-03 17:02:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by bam
Post by Tony Elka
In other words, you have no answer.
We accept your surrender.
I only fight worthy opponents. You're way out of your league.
......AND in this corner, weighing 125lbs. the champeen Tony Elka.

Hizz opponent, weighing 228 and a half, BAM D. Evangelista.

Keep it clean fellas. No grabbing below the belt. Break when I tell yas.
And no peepee jokes.
--
Robert Steinberg
MidiOpera Co.
http://www.midiopera.com
Tony Elka
2005-03-03 18:18:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Steinberg
......AND in this corner, weighing 125lbs. the champeen Tony Elka.
I had no idea the low-carb thing would work that fast!

Tony
•R.L.Measures
2005-03-03 11:44:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by bam
Post by Beach Runner
I seem to recall events like the Crusades, which murdered a 1/3rd of the
Jews of Europe on the way over,
Then you know nothing about the Crusades.
Post by Beach Runner
the Spanish Inquisition,
of which you know less....
Post by Beach Runner
Pogroms,
of which you know nothing...
Post by Beach Runner
Witch burning, Galilleo recanting, other great thinkers being tortured and
killed, something called the dark ages.
You've never read a thing about any of this.
BAM
clueless
--
€ R.L.Measures, 805-386-3734, www.somis.org
remove _ from e-mail adr
Mark Sebree
2005-03-03 01:46:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by christian
Post by Dr Freud
Post by albert landa
I have a little 8 year old pupil who is brought to her lesson each week by
her mother. A charming girl but not particularly gifted or
physically well
Post by christian
Post by Dr Freud
Post by albert landa
adapted to learning a keyboard instrument.She always seemed to enjoy the
lessons and used to skip up the steps to the studio with a big smile on her
face.Over the last month I have noticed a change.She seems to have lost a
lot of confidence, is very tentative and doesn't smile.
Her mother supervises her practice sessions at home and it appears has
started screaming at her at the least sign of a slip or error.It also
appears that the mother learnt piano as a child and was taught by a Catholic
nun who used to hit her over the knuckles with a ruler whenever she made an
error or slip.The mother is STILL traumatised by these memories and seems to
be unaware that she is starting to replicate this behaviour with her little
girl.
In my long teaching career I must say that this is not the first time I have
come across this sort of thing.I have had quite a few mature-age students
who are returning to the piano after a long gap which was often the result
of giving up the piano because this sort of treatment by their catholic-nun
teachers caused them to loathe the piano and music generally.One pupil told
me that as well as screaming at her and hitting her over the
knuckles the
Post by christian
Post by Dr Freud
Post by albert landa
nun strongly ( and erroneously) believed that it was important to hold the
wrists very high.To this end she used to hold a very sharp pencil under the
wrist of the girl and if the wrist dropped too low.......well, you know.It
was also difficult and time-consuming to get them to relax and ultimately
enjoy their new contact with the piano.
It must be said that I have come across the occasional excellent nun-teacher
who is loved by her students and does good work, but this is
relatively rare
Post by christian
Post by Dr Freud
Post by albert landa
and is far outweighed by the negative phenomenon described above.
What is it about the Catholic church that produces this sort of abusive
behaviour and destroys the love for music and the piano of so many innocent
children?
Medical and psychiatric studies have shown that sexually repressed
nuns engage in this behavior because they suffer from neurosis and
psychosis due to suppression of the normal human libido.
Previously-virgin nuns who have left the convent to marry and have
children have shown remarkable improvement in these symptoms, which
demonstrates that the environment of abstinence and sacrifice and
self-flagelation as well as living together with other repressed
virgin females produces this type of dementia.
In other words, all they need is a good lay.
You people are insane. If it weren't for the Catholic Church
millions
Post by christian
of people on earth would have never even received an education. Or a
hot meal. Or medical care.
At least when the Church was in charge we didn't have the cesspool
that is society today. Nothing but promiscuity, pornography,
abortion, gay marriage.
Look at the Bibles of the time. They had quite of bit of pornography.

There was also quite a bit of promiscuity, especially among the
noblemen (look up how many bastard lines there were) and the military.

The Catholic Church performed gay marriages, and has gay saints,
including the gay couple that is invoked by the Office of Same Sex
Unions, Saint Serge and Saint Bacchus. And they were promised that
they would be together in Heaven.

And several saints that helped shape Christian thought and the Catholic
church had little problem with early abortion, recommending greatly
reduced penance and a lesser sin. (Remember, they thought that all sex
was evil and sinful.) And this was because they thought that it did
not have a human soul. People like Saint Augustine, Gratian, and Saint
Thomas Aquinas, and the Venerable Bede.
Post by christian
You should thank those wonderful nuns for rapping your knuckles with
their rulers.
Why? They were wrong on almost every count.
Post by christian
You can be sure there were ZERO abortions back then,
False. There were probably proportionally more.
Post by christian
none of this gay lifestyle nonsense,
Then why did priests have ceremonies specifically to perform gay
marriages? And gay saints?
Post by christian
and people were honest,
But not as honest as today.
Post by christian
decent,
Just as they are today.
Post by christian
and behaved in a moral way.
According to their definition of moral. Everyone today also behaves in
a moral way, each according to his own definition of moral. That is
why we have laws that do not pay any attention to such fluid and
personal things as morals.
Post by christian
Bring back the nuns and the Catholic Church and let them flush out all
the raw sewage out of our schools and our society.
Which should have been the Catholic Church.
Post by christian
Especially
abortion, which is the biggest evil of all, because it involves
killing other human beings.
What human beings? The only human beings involved in abortion are the
pregnant women, and they are not killed.

Besides, why should anyone care what your religion and opinion says on
the subject? They are not bound by it, thankfully. If you don't like
abortion, then don't get one. And allow everyone else the courtesy and
ability of making the same decision for themselves and according their
own morals, beliefs, and situation. Women are not your slaves, so stop
thinking that you can command their obedience.
Post by christian
It's the biggest holocaust in the world.
Not even close, since it harms no people.
Post by christian
God Bless
You probably should ask the Goddess for more knowledge and wisdom,
because you obviously know little about your own religion's history.
And you think that you can tell other people what to think.

Mark Sebree
Tom Shaw
2005-03-03 18:01:32 UTC
Permalink
I hereby apologize for starting this silly thread by writing what was
supposed to be a humorous response to the OP. I think that most of the
posters on both sides in this thread are full of shit.

TS
Post by albert landa
Post by christian
Post by Dr Freud
Post by albert landa
I have a little 8 year old pupil who is brought to her lesson each
week by
Post by christian
Post by Dr Freud
Post by albert landa
her mother. A charming girl but not particularly gifted or
physically well
Post by christian
Post by Dr Freud
Post by albert landa
adapted to learning a keyboard instrument.She always seemed to
enjoy the
Post by christian
Post by Dr Freud
Post by albert landa
lessons and used to skip up the steps to the studio with a big
smile on her
Post by christian
Post by Dr Freud
Post by albert landa
face.Over the last month I have noticed a change.She seems to have
lost a
Post by christian
Post by Dr Freud
Post by albert landa
lot of confidence, is very tentative and doesn't smile.
Her mother supervises her practice sessions at home and it appears
has
Post by christian
Post by Dr Freud
Post by albert landa
started screaming at her at the least sign of a slip or error.It
also
Post by christian
Post by Dr Freud
Post by albert landa
appears that the mother learnt piano as a child and was taught by a
Catholic
Post by christian
Post by Dr Freud
Post by albert landa
nun who used to hit her over the knuckles with a ruler whenever she
made an
Post by christian
Post by Dr Freud
Post by albert landa
error or slip.The mother is STILL traumatised by these memories and
seems to
Post by christian
Post by Dr Freud
Post by albert landa
be unaware that she is starting to replicate this behaviour with
her little
Post by christian
Post by Dr Freud
Post by albert landa
girl.
In my long teaching career I must say that this is not the first
time I have
Post by christian
Post by Dr Freud
Post by albert landa
come across this sort of thing.I have had quite a few mature-age
students
Post by christian
Post by Dr Freud
Post by albert landa
who are returning to the piano after a long gap which was often the
result
Post by christian
Post by Dr Freud
Post by albert landa
of giving up the piano because this sort of treatment by their
catholic-nun
Post by christian
Post by Dr Freud
Post by albert landa
teachers caused them to loathe the piano and music generally.One
pupil told
Post by christian
Post by Dr Freud
Post by albert landa
me that as well as screaming at her and hitting her over the
knuckles the
Post by christian
Post by Dr Freud
Post by albert landa
nun strongly ( and erroneously) believed that it was important to
hold the
Post by christian
Post by Dr Freud
Post by albert landa
wrists very high.To this end she used to hold a very sharp pencil
under the
Post by christian
Post by Dr Freud
Post by albert landa
wrist of the girl and if the wrist dropped too low.......well, you
know.It
Post by christian
Post by Dr Freud
Post by albert landa
was also difficult and time-consuming to get them to relax and
ultimately
Post by christian
Post by Dr Freud
Post by albert landa
enjoy their new contact with the piano.
It must be said that I have come across the occasional excellent
nun-teacher
Post by christian
Post by Dr Freud
Post by albert landa
who is loved by her students and does good work, but this is
relatively rare
Post by christian
Post by Dr Freud
Post by albert landa
and is far outweighed by the negative phenomenon described above.
What is it about the Catholic church that produces this sort of
abusive
Post by christian
Post by Dr Freud
Post by albert landa
behaviour and destroys the love for music and the piano of so many
innocent
Post by christian
Post by Dr Freud
Post by albert landa
children?
Medical and psychiatric studies have shown that sexually repressed
nuns engage in this behavior because they suffer from neurosis and
psychosis due to suppression of the normal human libido.
Previously-virgin nuns who have left the convent to marry and have
children have shown remarkable improvement in these symptoms, which
demonstrates that the environment of abstinence and sacrifice and
self-flagelation as well as living together with other repressed
virgin females produces this type of dementia.
In other words, all they need is a good lay.
You people are insane. If it weren't for the Catholic Church
millions
Post by christian
of people on earth would have never even received an education. Or a
hot meal. Or medical care.
At least when the Church was in charge we didn't have the cesspool
that is society today. Nothing but promiscuity, pornography,
abortion, gay marriage.
Look at the Bibles of the time. They had quite of bit of pornography.
There was also quite a bit of promiscuity, especially among the
noblemen (look up how many bastard lines there were) and the military.
The Catholic Church performed gay marriages, and has gay saints,
including the gay couple that is invoked by the Office of Same Sex
Unions, Saint Serge and Saint Bacchus. And they were promised that
they would be together in Heaven.
And several saints that helped shape Christian thought and the Catholic
church had little problem with early abortion, recommending greatly
reduced penance and a lesser sin. (Remember, they thought that all sex
was evil and sinful.) And this was because they thought that it did
not have a human soul. People like Saint Augustine, Gratian, and Saint
Thomas Aquinas, and the Venerable Bede.
Post by christian
You should thank those wonderful nuns for rapping your knuckles with
their rulers.
Why? They were wrong on almost every count.
Post by christian
You can be sure there were ZERO abortions back then,
False. There were probably proportionally more.
Post by christian
none of this gay lifestyle nonsense,
Then why did priests have ceremonies specifically to perform gay
marriages? And gay saints?
Post by christian
and people were honest,
But not as honest as today.
Post by christian
decent,
Just as they are today.
Post by christian
and behaved in a moral way.
According to their definition of moral. Everyone today also behaves in
a moral way, each according to his own definition of moral. That is
why we have laws that do not pay any attention to such fluid and
personal things as morals.
Post by christian
Bring back the nuns and the Catholic Church and let them flush out
all
Post by christian
the raw sewage out of our schools and our society.
Which should have been the Catholic Church.
Post by christian
Especially
abortion, which is the biggest evil of all, because it involves
killing other human beings.
What human beings? The only human beings involved in abortion are the
pregnant women, and they are not killed.
Besides, why should anyone care what your religion and opinion says on
the subject? They are not bound by it, thankfully. If you don't like
abortion, then don't get one. And allow everyone else the courtesy and
ability of making the same decision for themselves and according their
own morals, beliefs, and situation. Women are not your slaves, so stop
thinking that you can command their obedience.
Post by christian
It's the biggest holocaust in the world.
Not even close, since it harms no people.
Post by christian
God Bless
You probably should ask the Goddess for more knowledge and wisdom,
because you obviously know little about your own religion's history.
And you think that you can tell other people what to think.
Mark Sebree
Tony Elka
2005-03-03 18:18:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Shaw
I hereby apologize for starting this silly thread by writing what was
supposed to be a humorous response to the OP. I think that most of the
posters on both sides in this thread are full of shit.
Long time no chat, old friend.

Tony
Tock
2005-03-02 07:24:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr Freud
In other words, all they need is a good lay.
In other words, they need to forget putting roses on their piano, and
instead put tulips on an organ . . .
-Tock
james of tucson
2005-03-02 05:49:52 UTC
Permalink
On 2005-02-28, albert landa <***@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

I have a good friend who grew up in a Western province of China.
She plays the violin rather well (at least at a university graduate
level), but pursued a career in chemistry instead.

Well, I recently saw some home video of her as a child, which was quite
a window into another world for me.

First, at about the age of 6, she was practicing violin 5 hours per day.
I saw some home movies from the earliest time, and was surprised to see
that they start with velocity -- she was playing 16th note andante scales,
but clearly with no concept of intonation!

Anyway, she'd do this for 5 hours, with her mom hitting her with
chopsticks. I've heard this from both my friend and her mom, and now
I've seen video. It pays off, I suppose -- later in the home movie
she's playing tremendously well, at about 12 years old.

What's my point? I don't know. I went to Catholic schools to, and I've
been beaten by priests who had no justification. I don't judge a whole
group of people by the actions of a few, but I damn sure don't have a
kind word to say about one particular abbey.
albert landa
2005-03-02 10:19:23 UTC
Permalink
Dear James,

I certainly take your point about judging a "whole group of people" by the
actions of a few. But my original post asked the question "What is it about
the CATHOLIC CHURCH"?....etc. That is the INSTITUTION of the Catholic Church
that seems to create this much publicised tendency towards sadistic cruelty,
especially towards those who are most vulnerable?Of course there are many
fine people who are Catholics. I don't think anyone would dispute that.I did
mention the wonderful nun-teacher that I came across...

In the case of your Chinese friend.It seems to me that she was so talented
and hard-working (under cruel coercion) that she progressed DESPITE the
sadistic treatment by her mother. I wonder how far she might have gone if
the approach was one of love instead.Do you believe that the ends justifies
the means?

I mean, to make a 6 year old practise for 5 hours a day to me is tantamount
t o a level of cruelty that makes the chop-sticks treatment seem positively
benign.This is sadism pure and simple!What is this girl's relationship with
her mother now?Did she ever get to play with her friends?Did she have any
friends? I note that she has not gone into the profession so perhaps all
that sadism was wasted after all.

Regarding your own experience.You mentioned "one particular abbey". Are you
sure that this was the ONLY ''abbey" where this sort of arbitrary violence
was meted out to helpless children?

I do not single out the Catholic Church for my criticism.I believe that
there is the potential for violent repression latent in all religious
institutions or other fixed belief systems.It has to be exposed.

albert landa
Post by james of tucson
I have a good friend who grew up in a Western province of China.
She plays the violin rather well (at least at a university graduate
level), but pursued a career in chemistry instead.
Well, I recently saw some home video of her as a child, which was quite
a window into another world for me.
First, at about the age of 6, she was practicing violin 5 hours per day.
I saw some home movies from the earliest time, and was surprised to see
that they start with velocity -- she was playing 16th note andante scales,
but clearly with no concept of intonation!
Anyway, she'd do this for 5 hours, with her mom hitting her with
chopsticks. I've heard this from both my friend and her mom, and now
I've seen video. It pays off, I suppose -- later in the home movie
she's playing tremendously well, at about 12 years old.
What's my point? I don't know. I went to Catholic schools to, and I've
been beaten by priests who had no justification. I don't judge a whole
group of people by the actions of a few, but I damn sure don't have a
kind word to say about one particular abbey.
olenka
2005-03-08 19:35:16 UTC
Permalink
I was studding music in atheistic country with the same abusive
approach. Later in my life I understood, that the traditional system of
teaching piano, when student has to build eye-hand coordination, both
hands coordination alone with music sight reading and rhythm is abusive
itself!
May be new generations of teachers are smiling and do not hitting the
student's hands, but by using old stressful approaches they commit
the same abuse as teachers with sticks and rulers
albert landa
2005-03-14 08:01:12 UTC
Permalink
Dear Olenka,

I, as well. I am sure, of most contributers to this NG are aware of your sad
experiences at the hands of an abusive teacher, but I do believe that your
experiences would not be the norm even(or, perhaps, especially) in Soviet
Russia.Most of us would have read the wonderful book by Heinrich Neuhaus,
the teacher of Richter, Gilels, Radu Lupu and many other great artists.What
a wonderful man! A real human being in the best sense, who approached his
teaching from the basis of love.Love of music, love of the piano and love of
his young charges.He is at the opposite pole to your teacher and represents
the very best and the ideal of a teacher in my view.And I am sure there must
be many more teachers of this sort in Russia and elsewhere.

Unfortunately, we have to face the fact that there are "teachers" out there
who see teaching as a power trip.I have a former pupil who after reaching a
good standard here 9Australia), wanted to go to Germany to study with a
"famous" teacher in Freiburg.Not only did he charge 200 marks per lesson,
but he spent most of the lesson talking about all his competition
prize-winners(mostly Russians) also taught in an authoritarian manner, to
the extent that she wrote to me that 2 of his students who were actually
engaged to each other committed suicide in the same year because of the deep
humiliation he inflicted upon them in his "Master" Classes.He should be
charged with murder.

Here in Australia we have just had a sensation in the piano world. The most
successful, expensive, teacher here is now serving several concurrent
life-sentences in prison for repeated sexual abuse of under-age male
students including anal penetration of a 10 year old boy student. His name
is Viktor Makarenko, a Ukrainian, who came to Sydney about 15 years ago and
who brought three of his most talented students from Ukraine.These boys won
everything out here and this of course helped him to quickly build up a
strong studio.His methods also were to scream sarcatic abuse to his
students. but he did inspire them to work, perhaps out of fear.He was a most
controversial teacher who had many enemies and pupils who left him in
bitterness and vowed revenge which they have now got because he will never
leave jail and he is completely ruined his life (and, I am sure, that of
many of his students.)

However, we do live in a capitalist system and we have to earn a living and
not many students out here will accept that style of teaching, and word soon
gets around, and once you get a reputation for that style of teaching you
can soon find yourself without students.

However, in your case, you seem to have been able to turn a most negative
beginning into a later life-success and for that you must be respected even
if not everyone agrees with your approach.

albert landa
Post by olenka
I was studding music in atheistic country with the same abusive
approach. Later in my life I understood, that the traditional system of
teaching piano, when student has to build eye-hand coordination, both
hands coordination alone with music sight reading and rhythm is abusive
itself!
May be new generations of teachers are smiling and do not hitting the
student's hands, but by using old stressful approaches they commit
the same abuse as teachers with sticks and rulers
Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...